An interesting idea for energy storage.

[Hersbird]

If the insect count is lower then that's all the more reason we need to build these somewhere else or not at all. See how this works? I personally am an all of the above type. I'd be for putting a power generation plant on a human crematorium. Use all the rats in NYC to run on little treadmills.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Cheap panels are getting close to $1/watt

$0.75/Watt

If you don't mind the minimum order of 15 panels (~5,925W) .. $0.44/Watt

[oil pan 4]

So we are to believe the 2.2 billion dollar bird incinerator is a prototype?
Or are they just making excuses because the too big to fail project isn't working as advertised.

Batteries are another big material cost item. They are only getting more expensive too.
AGM batteries have only increased at least 10% in the last 5 years.
LiFePO4 batteries have increased slightly in cost in the last 4 years.
Before and during this time all I have read on the internet is "batteries will get cheaper" so far all that has ever amounted to is wishful thinking out loud.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

So we are to believe the 2.2 billion dollar bird incinerator is a prototype?
Or are they just making excuses because the too big to fail project isn't working as advertised.

Batteries are another big material cost item. They are only getting more expensive too.
AGM batteries have only increased at least 10% in the last 5 years.
LiFePO4 batteries have increased slightly in cost in the last 4 years.
Before and during this time all I have read on the internet is "batteries will get cheaper" so far all that has ever amounted to is wishful thinking out loud.

. . . it matters not. The project is built and will continue to develop.

Prototype means many things to many people, but the fact the system is not a standardized off the shelf piece means it fits the description of "proto" type. Several dozen heliostat farms have preceded this one and each has taught design staffs a bit more. I have worked on multi-million dollar projects of such scope that it was understood that subsystems were to be improved upon regular replacement schedules.

And you have answered your own support for solar panels.

They cannot produce power when the sun goes down. You can install excess capacity to allow storage of electrical energy for later. But, how are you going to store that energy? You correctly stated the increasing costs of batteries. Those costs must be included in panel installation if you want to compare it to a large heliostat farm with the ability to store daylight energy via liquid salts or thermochemical cycles.

I see both technologies as supportive of each other. Place the ever cheaper panels in every nook and cranny of a city to reduce dependence on fossil fuels. Use conservation techniques to reduce this need even more. Then use heliostat farms to store daylight energy for the dark.

When something better than solar farms comes along, the heliostat arrays can be taken down with little trouble as they are simple towers and turbines and mirrors mounted on anchor poles.

You ask me why I am so passionate about solar energy, wind energy and geothermal energy? Simply because I directly benefit from these projects. My business lies along the energy corridors tying the Mojave to the Southern California Coastal cities. My machine tools like electricity. These projects feed my tools with relatively cheap electricity.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Batteries are another big material cost item. They are only getting more expensive too.

Anecdotal exceptions aside .. Evidence I have (of what has actually happened) disagrees with you.

Do you have non-anecdotal evidence supporting your claim ?

Also , when talking about 'expense' .. to be accurate one should also include inflation adjustment .. a Raw $ value that goes up slower than the rate of inflation is an overall , net less expensive .. even at a higher raw $ number.

[oil pan 4]

Besides that chart being ancient history you are actually correct, batteries did get cheaper I knew that and thought it was common knowledge.

I was talking about the last 4 to 5 years, the near future and specifically LiFePO4 not the entire "lithium ion" family history going back to the stone age. Since I have built my amp20 cell LiFePO4 battery these cells have not changed in price that much.

I like PV, they work, coupled with MPPT charge controller they work far better than expected for my vehicle solar assist/alt delete.
If I can get a power meter that will work with grid tie with out getting screwed over on surcharges I will buy at least several hundred watts of panels, put them on the roof and grid tie them.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Besides that chart being ancient history you are actually correct, batteries did get cheaper I knew that and thought it was common knowledge.

Which is why I found you claiming the opposite confusing.

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

I was talking about the last 4 to 5 years, the near future and specifically LiFePO4 not the entire "lithium ion" family history going back to the stone age. Since I have built my amp20 cell LiFePO4 battery these cells have not changed in price that much.

I doubt they had any Li-Batteries in the stone age ... much less LiFePO4 in particular..

Not sure what your expectation was ?? .. 4-5 years is not very long.

LiFePO4 is only one of many completing battery chemistries .. each with different pros and cons .. The discussion at hand about renewable energy storage is not limited to any one specific battery .. Any battery type is fair game if it's specs are competitive ... any type of energy storage for that matter (even non-battery) is also 100% fair game .. thus this OP topic about a non-battery Renewable energy storage option.

Not much change in 4-5 = they got less expensive .. as I pointed out before .. In order to hold exactly the same raw $/wh price , they would have to become less expensive at the rate of inflation .. In order to hold 100% exactly the same raw price $/wh bought in 2010 vs bought again 4 years latter in 2014 would require (due to inflation) over that same period , for the same batteries to have become roughly ~10% less expensive ... in just those 4 years .. any raw decrease in $/wh , over that same period, would be an additional (on top of that ~10%) .. in how much less expensive they became over that period.

[RustyLugNut]

. . . but the discussion has logically moved in this direction.

Empa - Empa-MM: "Fool´s Gold Battery"

We tend to look at the traditional battery chemistries as we discuss power storage. We should not ignore the lab work from which a game changer battery could spring.

[oil pan 4]

A big, cheap, low density, cheap battery lfor power storage is a break through.

I never did think smaller, lighter, higher energy density, more expensive, made with ever more harder to find elements was the way to do large scale power storage.

[redpoint5]

The bird burning issue will decrease as the number of birds in the area are reduced...

It seems more economical to build out a power distribution system that allows over-generation to be utilized in other regions rather than build enormous battery systems, or at least to reduce the amount of needed storage.