Kinetic Energy Storage

[Piotrsko]

What happened to the guy doing energy storage on the abandoned rail line in Tehachapi?

We had a discussion here a while back

[JSH]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

And this is why those concrete blocks and that crane seem to not be so efficient at all.

Why? If (yes that is an unknown) Energy Vault can built full size units at the quoted cost they are far cheaper than any other grid storage technology listed in the Dec 2020 Department of Energy report I linked above.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

It's not so clear how lowering the blocks with a crane could effectively provide electric power. Would it require a special crane with some feature similar to the regenerative braking featured on hybrid cars?

[jakobnev]

This was Thunder Busted a couple years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfms4h2YAA0

Edit: Sorry wrong video, I meant this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIhCuzxNvv0

[thingstodo]

Originally Posted by samwichse

Modern pumped hydro uses reversible turbines. No separate pumping system is used.

https://voith.com/corp-en/11_06_Bros...ge_einzeln.pdf

Engineering is all about trade-offs. It appears that the costs of doing separate pumps and turbines on very large systems out-weigh the increased efficiencies (from the graphs in the link)

I am guilty (again) of ASSUMING and being too LAZY to look it up

[JSH]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

It's not so clear how lowering the blocks with a crane could effectively provide electric power. Would it require a special crane with some feature similar to the regenerative braking featured on hybrid cars?

That is exactly how it works. When the grid has surplus electricity you use it to run the electric motors on the crane and stack blocks. When the grid needs electricity you unstack blocks, gravity turns the electric motor which acts as a generator and produces electricity. Just like an electric motor in an EV or hybrid.

Energy Vault's key innovation is stacking lots of smaller blocks with an autonomous crane. By using small weights the lifting structure can be built with inexpensive off-the-shelf construction crane components.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by jakobnev

This was Thunder Busted a couple years ago:

Wow, that is an annoying bad video full of useless filler. I notice it is from 2019 - before Energy Vault built their 1/4 scale demo unit which was finished a little more than a year ago.

I really got a laugh when he said "there is absolutely no reason to have bricks on the bottom" (of the stack) because "The bricks on the bottom store zero energy" Why are there bricks there at all? LOL! Maybe because you can't have a stack of bricks without one of the bricks being on the bottom.

His basic argument is the pump storage is better and makes up 95% of grid storage. He seems to fail to see that we will need to add a huge amount of grid storage if we switch to renewable energy at scale and we are about out of places to put huge reservoirs of water.

[freebeard]

Wow, that is an annoying bad video full of useless filler.

That's the reason I didn't watch it. Well actually it's his annoying voice crack on 'Welll...."

Joey Salads was on Tim Pool and when he wanted to slag on Elon Musk, he quoted Thunderfoot. I burst out laughing.

edit: I just realized where the idea for my 3D round house printer (with yards and booms) came from. It has a print head for pumped concrete, a pick-and-place arm for placing blocks and an impactor for a rammed earth floor.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

Just like an electric motor in an EV or hybrid

Seems reasonable, yet I believe it would still need some chemical storage, either a battery pack or some capacitors which might be better suited to the quick discharge cycles.

[redpoint5]

Yep, no getting around the need for instantaneous buffer to allow the continuous supply to ramp up. Fortunately that shouldn't need to be that extensive. 10 minutes tops?