The King is dead: Hyundai Ioniq (58 MPG US EPA combined) beats Prius ECO rating (56)

[Hersbird]

I was going to say the Hyundai beats the gen 1 insight using the current testing standards, even the manual. I like a manual as well but most people don't want them, add the extra seats, and this is definitely a step forward.

[MetroMPG]

EPA cycles are one thing, but it in the real world it wouldn't touch a gen 1 Insight in lean burn cruise.

[gone-ot]

Bring back "lean burn"...resurrect Charles Lindbergh and ask him *how* he taught the P-38 pilots in the Pacific to 'squeeze' almost twice the milage out of their Allison engines during 'open-ocean' patrols.

[MetroMPG]

Old Tele man, you're living up to your username today with factoids from the past. (Thanks.)

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Vman455

It is a compromise though. Two-seat cars can only carry two people, and because of this have never sold in large numbers.
Honda already demonstrated that with the original Insight, which fell far short of its sales expectations precisely because Honda misjudged the market by introducing a two-seat hybrid that fell to the four-seat Prius, which outsold it more than 10-to-1 the year it was brought to the US, and more than 148-to-1 by the time Honda finally killed the Insight. .

There was far more to the insight sales numbers and the Prius is part of it but not what you would expect.

Over the entire Insight production run you could not find a new example in any Wisconsin car dealership, and used examples took several years to arrive.
Our local Honda dealer would berate you and refuse to factory order an insight

The reality was that Toyota set a very low starting price and Honda found itself too expensive in an era of cheap gas.

Internally Honda wanted to only sell a low number of cars and was selling them mainly as engineering experiments because the market price (cough Prius) was to cheap for them to make a profit.

One of my college professors had to fly to California to get an insight because no one would order one for him (2000)

Because definite non market bs was present with the insight I'm not sure we can say it's sales figures are only because of 2 seats.
Look at the number of deposits for the elio?

Also a modern 2 door insight would benefit from modern power electronics being
1/5 the size and battery under half, could likely have 2+2 seating for adults and kids.

Ah well

[DIMS]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do not believe the Prius uses Direct Injection.
If you look at say the Mazda 3 before and after direct injection it was 4MPG or similar. Not sure if this was coupled with the Variable timing or not but I do know direct injection would put the Prius in front.

Toyota news Toyota unveils advanced engines for 2017 and beyond

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

EPA cycles are one thing, but it in the real world it wouldn't touch a gen 1 Insight in lean burn cruise.

Which doubt would pass current emissions requirements or Hyundai would use it. Blame the EPA not Hyundai for that. Still, beating it in the EPA test means the average driver will get better mileage with the Hyundai, especially considering it is unlikely the Insight is still operating 100%.

[Hersbird]

There is a possible reason NOT to use direct injection. It looks like under the 2017 tier 3 emissions standards (which phase in from 2017-2025) they may be needing exhaust particulate filters, and then those will need a regen mode just like on diesels. In the end you end up with no MPG benefit and a huge cost addition.
http://sam.abuelsamid.com/2015/09/01...issions-rules/

[LittleBlackDuck]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

EPA cycles are one thing, but it in the real world it wouldn't touch a gen 1 Insight in lean burn cruise.

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Which doubt would pass current emissions requirements or Hyundai would use it. Blame the EPA not Hyundai for that. Still, beating it in the EPA test means the average driver will get better mileage with the Hyundai, especially considering it is unlikely the Insight is still operating 100%.

And that is why there is so much smog! All these Insight punters need to let go and realise that saving 20 drops of fuel is not worth killing the atmosphere.

NOx and diesel particulates will cost much more in the longer term than a small amount of extra fuel.

Simon

[RedDevil]

Our consumer test organization 'Consumentenbond' has tested several new cars by the official testing protocol and in practice.

What they found was that more than half of the diesel powered cars go way over the limit for NOx and particulates in normal daily use. So it is not just a Volkswagen problem.

Worst scoring is the Renault Captur dCi 90. In the [road] testcycle this engine emits 460 milligram of NOx (nitrogenoxides) per kilometer. That's over 5.5 times the limit.

Alarmingly, several gas powered cars fail the daily use emissions test too.
Especially the direct injection engines have basically the same problem as diesel engines: high NOx and particulates.
Source (Dutch): https://www.consumentenbond.nl/nieuw...escherpte-test

The Ioniq is featured in the car comparison results but gets only 3 starts out of 5 for the ecotest, whereas the Prius gets 5.
The Tesla Model S P90 D only gets 4...!!!
https://www.consumentenbond.nl/zuini...COTEST&58423=3