Legendary Mystery Buick 3.8, 27 mpg city (taxi), 44 mpg hwy (turbo)

[Cardinal Grammeter]

You are most welcome to show me where I used Motor or Engine improperly.

[Christ]

When you made the suggestion that electric and gas motors should be distinguished from each other via the use of either term, you suggested that they be used improperly, as both are technically defined as a motor, in the sense that we use them, which is "an object or device specifically designed to produce motive force".

By definition, a motor is an engine, meaning that both electric and gas engines can be openly referred to as either. Clearly, you misunderstood the point, because you later suggested that those were"internet definitions", and that "because lay people use a term incorrectly does not mean they should be accepted", to which I agreed, while pointing out your hypocritical misuse of the above stated. Those, sir (?), are NOT internet definitions, but definitions stated in my own words, derived from study of the topic. They are not an accurate description of how the terms are commonly misused, rather a distinction from said misuse, declaring the appropriate use.

Once again - by definition, a motor is an engine, however, this is not reverse applicable. And engine does not necessarily provide motive force. Therefore, the terms are not universally interchangeable, but can be used interchangeably in reference to something which fits both definitions, which then would require that said object be defined as "an object or device which converts a (any) form of energy, at least partially, into a motive force."

A light bulb can be defined as an engine, but not as a motor, unless some portion of the hest or light derived from the bulb is directly used to create motion, i.e. the heat turbine experiments from elementary school.

Nothing about this is difficult or so advanced that a young child couldn't understand and appreciate the concept... In fact, I believe I was taught exactly this while attending basic elementary level schools.

[ChazInMT]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(()) UNICORN ALERT-- 27 MPG taxi 3800 v-6 engine....Why is this thread in the open air?? I say it should join the Unicorns until proven true by something other than some chowderhead posting it online somewhere.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

Unicorn?
Fine.
So you deny 45 mpg Grand Nationals?

If you do then, I guess you are right.

If not, then it is entirely possible that a cab could get 27-30 mpg.

Don't forget while they are mostly local fares, they are usually run continuously. It could very well be that the difference is related to the Cold Start Map. I suspect it is a number of things.

[Phantom]

The only varrients of the 3.8 Buick V6 are:

The 231 odd-fire this was a v8 with the bore increases to 3.8 inches and had 2 cylindars removed, made in the early 70s most likely not it.

The LD5 or in California LC6 had smoother firing pattern and larger valves in 1984 they added sequential fuel injection and a distributorless ignition. This one is more likely to be what you are looking for the FWD transmission used here was the THM325-4L it has an overdrive gear but I'm not sure of the gear ratio if you find it remember that there are several differentials used and each change the ratio some. I believe that transmission had the same feature as the TH440 where you can change the automatic shift points by turning a cable. A side note the TH440 was later renamed the 4T60e that was used from 1984-94 and replaced by the 4T65e.

In the mid 84 the first engine dubed the 3.8 FWD was released with the changes being the mounting points and multi point fuel injection and the ignition used a destributor. In 86 they went back to sequential fuel injection and a distriburot less ignition in 88 they went from flat tappet lifters to roller lifters.

Now is the 3800 (Pre-series) LN3 from 1988-1991 here most of the changes were made to the motor including multiport fuel injection, a new balance shaft and on-center bore spacing.

In 1991 the 3800 series I L27 was started and used Tuned Port Injection in 1993 they revised the roller lifters with a more efficient versions.

I will stop there on the history of the 3.8/3800 before I start going into the OBDI to OBD1.5 and OBDII changes, changes in deck heigh water pump and casting changes the next set of transmission changes and the 4 different NA upper intakes that came after that and im not even including the different superchargers.

I did not get to read the last post on the first page as I have to leave work and sorry about any misspellings as I typed this in notepad.

[ChazInMT]

Cardinal....I'm saying show me the proof. I don't have to prove it doesn't exist. I didn't make the claim of a 45 MPG GN or 27 MPG Taxi not existing. You claim it does exist. I'm saying show something that proves these exist besides one posting by someone on the internet who could just as easily have written about his travels to distant planets in faraway galaxies. Certainly this extraordinary 3800 engine was documented somewhere. Go find it. Otherwise quit talking about this as a fact, cause at this point it appears to be a myth that you are perpetuating.

In addition, as has been pointed out elsewhere in Ecomodder, the engine is only 1 part of a puzzle in creating a vehicle that gets 45mpg. Supposing that the engine in the right car could get 45mpg, I find it insanely hard to believe that the 1980’s technology, aero design, drive train design, tires, and enormous weight could accomplish something like 27 & 45 MPG when current automotive producers using the latest science have a difficult time achieving this. If you want to debate that current model cars being offered are somehow capable of 50,60, or 70mpg, and “The Man” is screwing us all over by detuning them, than go ahead and say that. It is essentially what your claim is when you talk about some 3800 having gotten crazy mileage years ago, but was kept from mass production for some mysterious/conspiracy reason.

So, consider the brown BS Flag as having been thrown here, until you can back up what you say. This is a forum which is based on science; pseudoscience, myths, and hoaxes are met with resistance in order to maintain the credibility of this website.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

CH: Obviously there is no way I can prove this because first hand speech from the fellow who still owns the taxi company and actually owned one of these cars claims this and this is not good enough for you. Even if I produced log books, you would still say they are doctored.

So that leaves what is published.

A few posts ago, I found a reference to a MAGAZINE ARTICLE THAT CLAIMED A "RIDICULOUS" 46.17 MPG over a 61 mile course - and this was turbo Regal. ("Real Street Eliminators," January 1996 Car Craft magazine.)

Tell you what, I believe it. You don't. It's a magazine article. If you want to raise the BS flag with me, first do it with what is actually published.

When you've proved they are liars, then you can come after me.

[cfg83]

Cardinal Grammeter -

Originally Posted by Cardinal Grammeter

CH: Obviously there is no way I can prove this because first hand speech from the fellow who still owns the taxi company and actually owned one of these cars claims this and this is not good enough for you. Even if I produced log books, you would still say they are doctored.

So that leaves what is published.

A few posts ago, I found a reference to a MAGAZINE ARTICLE THAT CLAIMED A "RIDICULOUS" 46.17 MPG over a 61 mile course - and this was turbo Regal. ("Real Street Eliminators," January 1996 Car Craft magazine.)

Tell you what, I believe it. You don't. It's a magazine article. If you want to raise the BS flag with me, first do it with what is actually published.

When you've proved they are liars, then you can come after me.

Here's the magazine issue :

Car Craft Covers #450-499

Here it is on e-bay :

Car Craft Magazine, January 1996 Real Street Eliminator | eBay

Here's a debate on it in another forum :

Car Craft: 46mpg from 87 Buick Turbo V6 - TurboBuicks.com

If the above quotes are accurate then it's plausible to me. If you don't care about emissions then you can program a lean-burn sweet spot in the chip. The chip could even be custom-tailored for the 61 mile course.

CarloSW2

[Cardinal Grammeter]

Carlo,

Yep, that's the thread I discovered during this thread.

I'm still trying to find the stock Buick turbo car mag road test that got the 44.5 mpg (from vague memory here) on the 5th wheel while driving to strip. (I just went through all the boxes of car mags I could find and could find nothing pre-1989 so there is at least 1 box I have not found yet.)

I'm trying to join turbobuicks.com but can't post yet - someone there has to remember that road test. I think it was Motor Trend but it could be Car and Driver. I don't think it was any of the Hot Rod, Car Craft, etc. mags.

[mcrews]

Why is this thread here???

He posts this "legendary" comment.

He's frustrated that everybody isn't all excited

He argues with Christ about some innane definition on motors and engines

Seem like ol "Don" chasing the windmill.....