Looking at a Forester, but something doesn't add up... - Page 2 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum

brucepick · 10-13-2016, 02:48 PM

I'm not sure how much off roading you want to do.

I'm a huge fan of winter tires. I drove rear-drive Volvos in New England for 13 years. I NEVER had to play second fiddle to any 4WD on the road. I always had 4 winter tires on the car. I put some weight in the back over the drive wheels and passed most other vehicles on the snowed-over interstate.

Its NOT a matter of how many tires are grasping at the slippery snow. It's a matter of whether they can grab it. Modern winter tires do an amazing job. And a few of them are also excellent in icy conditions. I've had excellent ice traction from Michelin X-Ice 2's and 3's. I've just ordered Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2's for my Honda Insight, similar technology to the X-ice series. AND those are all LRR tires. Nice bonus.

seifrob · 10-13-2016, 03:24 PM

Winter tyres are mandatory here. For good reason. They really work.

NoD~ · 10-13-2016, 05:55 PM

From what I've read (but have not yet experienced), the Insights are pretty terrible winter cars, due to the offset wheel. So there's a strike against the idea of simply throwing winter tires on it. Second, my Neon had me stuck in my driveway (somewhat long gravel road) to where I had to put my cables on to get out (and even then, it was quite a show!). Third, when the snow melts, there's some pretty nasty mud. So that's just my reasoning for an AWD on a winter-only basis on a daily drive alone.

On overconfidence, I'm not your average driver. (Hell, I'm here, aren't I?!) my work has an AWD Jeep Charoke that the AWD helps quite a bit, but only a fool would drive it like there's no snow/ice on the ground! And AWD doesn't do any good for stopping...

So yeah, well aware of what having 4 wheels spinning vs 2 can do for me. lol

I took the Insight into the hills to get to a trail head and got stuck in gravel. On top of that, the roads were pretty harsh on my little DD, so I want to make sure I get something that can take that abuse. Especially since I plan on hitting much harder to reach trails in the future!

And 1 other thing: I want a backup vehicle for in case my Insight has issues.

I've driven (and raced) FWD cars my whole life. I just want to experience AWD and have a ton of room for comfortable travels.

(all that said, I'm not sold on anything, just noticed the cD differences, yet the same MPG, was curious if anybody had more info on this)

Ecky · 10-13-2016, 06:10 PM

It's all about tires. I picked up a set of Nokian Nordmans for my Insight, and I can't count how many times last winter I drove around my in-laws' 2014 Prius which couldn't get out of the driveway (Cooper winter tires), and I pulled my dad's F150 out of a snow-bank (Firestone winter tires). I also pulled my wife's HCH1 up the driveway with some rope one time. I can't remember what tires are on the HCH1, but they were there when I bought the car, maybe Douglas winter tires?

Anyway, with the Nokians, the Insight outperformed all of these vehicles which had "lesser" tires, in anything that wasn't so deep it bottomed out. Maybe if they all had the same tires it would be different, but YMMV.

cosmick · 10-13-2016, 06:47 PM

Just because you had a good experience with one doesn't make it any better, it just means your standards are really low. If yours seemed that good tk you, then you can't imagine how much better the best is. It isn't flawless, but it is worlds better in every practical way.
But you have a right to your opinion, go ahead and waste the fruits of your money tree. Those of us who have to be wise with what we have to work hard for will be laughing at you.

Ecky · 10-13-2016, 06:55 PM

Is that directed at me? I guess I waste my money by spending an extra $20 per tire rather than buying a new car, so I can go cut down that money tree down now. I probably ought to be wise and work with the new car I don't have yet.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr · 10-13-2016, 10:43 PM

I don't like Subaru engines so much as I used to do, but their AWD setup is good. As long as you get it with the manual transmission, and IIRC it also features a dual-range selector, it might serve you right.

Hersbird · 10-14-2016, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samwichse

Meh, I'd rather have front wheel drive with a good set of snow tires than a Subaru all wheel drive with four-season tires on it.

Four wheel drive does nothing for slippery handling (in spite of manufacturers suggestions that it's somehow safer). The most it can do is get you moving more easily on a slippery surface, but then not as well as a fwd car with snow tires on it. And every car made in the last 80 years has four wheel brakes.

Next time it snows, look at the proportion of cars in the ditch on the side of the road due to Awd/4wd induced over confidence. Then go buy your basic sedan/hatch a set of winter steelies and tires.

The Myth of All-Powerful All-Wheel Drive

Look at the difference in stopping distance with all season vs snow tires... really tells the story:
Do You Really Need AWD in the Snow? - Consumer Reports

Why am I comparing awd/4wd with all seasons to 2wd with snows? Because people plunk down their extra money for 4wd and think "good enough." And pay higher maintenance costs, and pay for all the extra gas they burn. And aren't any safer (or less safe considering 4wd is like the devil's right hand, it can get you into trouble but it can't get you out).

My alternative is much cheaper AND uses less gas. Especially if you're willing to swap the wheels yourself in the late fall/early spring.

Sam

The Forester uses small inexpensive tires compared to most 4wds, and they seem to last forever with even wear. I agree you will see 4wds in the ditch, but not may subies. I put on studded snow tires for winter and the awd does help handling in poor conditions over fwd if you are experienced in driving. You can induce under or oversteer with awd. It produces overconfidence because it is better. It is pretty much fun compared to the white knuckles everyone else are experiencing. So yeah, some people drive like an idiot, but it doesn't make you one, I bet you started out that way. I paid $3000 for my Forester 3 years ago did the $400 maintenance I talked about before plus an alternator and a strut for anther $175 or so. It's just a great car for all the things the OP discussed. As to the original question, the EPA doesn't get very fast, maybe it's just not enough difference to show up in the EPA cycle. The real world it should help to get the later.

Oh and one more thing, the Forester tows pretty well. The US says 2000 pounds but the identical car in South Africa is 4400 pounds. I tow a 5x8' trailer or a waverunner pretty often and it does great.

Fat Charlie · 10-14-2016, 08:09 AM

AWD in the wet isn't just for getting going. With a manual it's the best set of gentle brakes you can find, and your foot never even leaves the pedal.

It also really shines in lane changes during snow- when there's a ridge in the middle of the lane and another one between the lanes. When both wheels on one side are in that muck you've still got two drive wheels on pavement.

My 05 Legacy was limping badly by the time it went away, but the only parts on it at the time that hadn't been on it when it left the factory were the tires and spark plugs.

NoD~ · 10-14-2016, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Oh and one more thing, the Forester tows pretty well. The US says 2000 pounds but the identical car in South Africa is 4400 pounds. I tow a 5x8' trailer or a waverunner pretty often and it does great.

AH! That's the other requirement I forgot! I put a small tow hitch on my Neon and it did decent. Most I ever pulled was around 700lbs or so. I have my covered trailer and I really would like to be able to tow that again. Insight definitely isn't going to be able to do this task! (at least, with my confidence in that realm of her...)