Looking for help building a Gas Vapor system

[racprops]

done

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by racprops

I question the accuracy of what is taught in schools.

I do NOT think I will reach 100% BUT I do think it will be much better that what is done now.

I find it questionable that gas vapor systems are somewhat outlawed.

And IF this is a waste of time why did someone pay Tom Ogal so much money??

What do certain inventions disappear??

I feel this is worth looking into..

Rich

Which is fine, others on this forum have questioned it in many of my posts. This still doesn't change the fact that I, and others have SEEN through combustion photography ( high speed camera views through boro-silicate windows) and measured ( through temperature and pressure measurements) the fact that 98% of the fuel mass is consumed before BDC on the power stroke. Google it. Since you seem to trust Google more than brick and mortar educations. There are dozens of images showing combustion in standard form, HCCI and diesel spray combustion including images from Transonic's old pages that show how their critical point injection system results in rapid dispersion before combustion resulting in little to no particulate formation showing how effective their system was. Why is their system not in production? Did they get bought out? No. They simply could not tame the single flaw of their system - reliability. They had a fuel system that produced 52% thermal efficiency from a gasoline powered car and it simply was too unreliable. They closed their doors in 2015. I had interviewed them for a possible use of their system in our Xprize entry but I quickly realized they were not in the position to execute a demonstration that could last the rigors of the competition.

You may poo poo 52% TE but I say that is a real, useful nugget to begin with. Ernie, a physicist who did some calculations on an Atkinson ( over expanding power stroke ) application to a diesel engine he hoped to run during the AutoXPrize showed that 58% TE is possible. Throw in improved lubrication and thermal coatings and a few more percent could push you over 60% TE.

Or you could run vapor carburetors.

[Hersbird]

This is why this belongs in unicorn land. Missing inventions, "It has been said" more likely in a science fiction than in science, a grand conspiracy. Trust me there is more money to be made in improving efficiency than there is to be lost. Meaning big oil or whoever you think is suppressing this miracle, would happily branch out and make vapor fuel systems if there was any science to it. Trust me, it's not like it hasn't been studied and tried. Worried about having to pay some patient? China could give a crap and would greatly benifit from improvements in ICE efficiency. So what happens is it becomes like a religion to those that try it, and they then completely lie and hide their real results refusing to admit them. It's one thing to keep trying and another to fake results. I just hope you don't go down that path. Build your system but in the end allow sceptics to verify it. Test emissions, test power, carefully measure fuel. Your idea of keeping the stock FI in place is already a red flag. That is a common way to hide a vapor system that doesn't make any power. Why I'd like to see the vapor mowers cut wet grass as well. Put a tiny, low power motor that is immune to emission requirements in a car and I bet any automaker out there could do a 100mpg car. It won't accelerate, it won't hardly go 60 mph, it won't go up a hill, NOX will be through the roof, and in your opinion they will end up dead in a plane wreck and the car will be stolen from the warehouse.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

This is why this belongs in unicorn land. Missing inventions, "It has been said" more likely in a science fiction than in science, a grand conspiracy. Trust me there is more money to be made in improving efficiency than there is to be lost. Meaning big oil or whoever you think is suppressing this miracle, would happily branch out and make vapor fuel systems if there was any science to it. Trust me, it's not like it hasn't been studied and tried. Worried about having to pay some patient? China could give a crap and would greatly benifit from improvements in ICE efficiency. So what happens is it becomes like a religion to those that try it, and they then completely lie and hide their real results refusing to admit them. It's one thing to keep trying and another to fake results. I just hope you don't go down that path. Build your system but in the end allow sceptics to verify it. Test emissions, test power, carefully measure fuel. Your idea of keeping the stock FI in place is already a red flag. That is a common way to hide a vapor system that doesn't make any power. Why I'd like to see the vapor mowers cut wet grass as well. Put a tiny, low power motor that is immune to emission requirements in a car and I bet any automaker out there could do a 100mpg car. It won't accelerate, it won't hardly go 60 mph, it won't go up a hill, NOX will be through the roof, and in your opinion they will end up dead in a plane wreck and the car will be stolen from the warehouse.

There is some value to be had in HOT vapor combustion. Even if only a few percent is gained. The real value is in extending the combustion lean limits and producing torque in lean burn mode far beyond what is common. PgfPro's Unique Talon is proof of that. People have asked why the Smokey Engine hasn't been reproduced, well, in essence it has and PgfPro has only scratched the surface.

[racprops]

done

[racprops]

done

[racprops]

done

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by racprops

Thanks, BUT I am NOT trying to feed a engine HOT vapor, it will only be as hot as needed to keep it in a vapor state until burned, it will be cooled after conversion TO vapor.

Simply put, it states that a chemical reaction increases in rapidity in proportion to the temperature of your mixture.

If you have a lazy burning lean mix that is flaming out around 20:1 AFR, increasing the temperature can allow you to produce the same torque at a somewhat leaner temperature as the flame front will stabilize. Of course, it is not that simple. Increased pressure and turbulence play a part. The Misfit Talon can cruise at 28:1 AFR and above because of added pressure and turbulence.

If you cool your vapor, you chance condensing the fuel back to droplets. Also, even if you keep it in vapor form you may only see the 2-3% TE gain from the elimination of vaporization losses during combustion ( an irreversible loss ).

Also, your 1600 gallons of vaporized gasoline ( at STP - standard temperature and pressure ) will mix with about 9140 gallons of air ( using volume percentages ) to form a stoichiometric mix. This turns out to be . . . 14.7 AFR! Wow, look at that! Yes, if used and detonated in a fuel air bomb, it is quite spectacular. But as far as energy? That fuel air bomb has no more energy than the fuel equivalent I put in my Hemi Magnum fuel tank.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by racprops

So, in other words, you question my veracity.

I Do not question YOUR VERACITY.. I question the facts your citing

This happens to be my specialty, so . . .

. . . university degrees notwithstanding, it is also the area of my experience.

You still haven't answered my indirect question, so I will ask this directly.

Question:

Since Transonic was able to provide a true vaporized gasoline fuel to the combustion chamber and proved a TE of 50% and a bit more, what is the basis for your expectations of even more thermal efficiency?

They ran lean burn with no throttle at cruise so this eliminated throttling losses. Their TE numbers include that gain. They also minimized losses to the combustion chamber by rapidly igniting the fuel before the fuel plume impinged on the chamber/cylinder walls.

[RustyLugNut]

racprops, I am not trying to dissuade you from performing your work, I encourage that. I am asking you to temper your expectations as you move forward so as not to be discouraged by "only getting 10 or 20 percent gain". That type of gain would be considered significant in the world of combustion science. If you do get to 100% TE and can prove the doubters wrong, then go get them! Just be satisfied with moving forward and picking up those single digit gains along the way.