Lots of HHO gen. Qs.

[user removed]

Originally Posted by ecoTex

Note on that page it says this:Quote:... producing hydrogen from electrolysis with electricity at 5 cents/kWh will cost $28/million BTU ...-mort

According to this page....

Average electricity prices around the world: $/kWh

a kwh of electricity in the USA costs $.12.
I guess you can make anything economically viable if you get to make up the prices of everything. Just ask any government anywhere.

I was going to post the same thing as well as the fact that fees and taxes are also a part of the cost of electricity that some conveniently like to omit.
Lets just state that our mileage is greater because we deducted the Federal and State taxes on gasoline, which are collected at the pump. Kind of like the guy with the Mercedes that claimed 1200 MPG since he was using waste oil.

Take a bottle of H2 and run a line to your manifold. Measure the difference in mileage when adding the H2 and see how much hydrogen you need to improve your mileage by X amount.

regards
Mech

[pgfpro]

I would like to add that the HHO discussions on this forum help people like me understand the information that I don't have much background when it comes to these HHO systems.

People like Mech make it way easy for me to understand with his great analogy.

[ecoTex]

There really should be an HHO section. All the questions have been answered by knowledgeable members and/or obfuscated by proponents

[mort]

Originally Posted by ecoTex

... a kwh of electricity in the USA costs $.12.
I guess you can make anything economically viable if you get to make up the prices of everything ...

$.1226 is the US average residential rate for March 2014. In Washington state the industrial rate is $.043 see here (Your data is from 2011.)
You don't need to make anything up, if you live in the right place. The OP, Sunburnt, lives in Arizona, where electrical rates are only slightly lower than the national average.
Electrical costs reported by eia are to the end user including fees and taxes. Check the foot notes.
-mort

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Take a bottle of H2 and run a line to your manifold. Measure the difference in mileage when adding the H2 and see how much hydrogen you need to improve your mileage by X amount.

regards
Mech

NASA tried this and published a report and hho believers see it as their holy grail.
The finding showed about a 3% improvement in fuel economy.
How the believers interpreted that as proof hho machines work is beyond me.

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

NASA tried this and published a report and hho believers see it as their holy grail.
The finding showed about a 3% improvement in fuel economy.
How the believers interpreted that as proof hho machines work is beyond me.

It's called confirmation bias - selecting data that supports a position and ignoring data that doesn't. - and that includes selecting data that isn't even applicable.

[elhigh]

I think hydrogen offers a pretty poor return on an energy investment, if that's how you want to convey energy from a generator to your car. Ultracapacitors, for instance, do much better job of returning what was put into them than batteries. There's the niggling detail of poor capacity compared even to modest batteries, but hope springs eternal. And none of this addresses the very real hurdle of an almost complete absence of a hydrogen infrastructure. The grid, lossy as it is, already exists. The gasoline infrastructure already exists.

I remain unconvinced of hydrogen's utility as an additive to a gasoline burning engine. I haven't seen anything compelling that makes me think it's actually leaning out the engine, or displacing fossil fuel consumption, or any kind of bootstrap process that somehow makes the engine's output produce an overunit equivalent quantity of energy in the form of hydrogen. If I believed that, I would be investing also in self-torqueing flywheels and magnets.

[ecoTex]

Originally Posted by mort

$.1226 is the US average residential rate for March 2014. In Washington state the industrial rate is $.043 see here (Your data is from 2011.)
You don't need to make anything up, if you live in the right place. The OP, Sunburnt, lives in Arizona, where electrical rates are only slightly lower than the national average.
Electrical costs reported by eia are to the end user including fees and taxes. Check the foot notes.
-mort

So...You are admitting I'm right?

You cite a price of $.05 per KWH=$28/million BTU to support a claim that this is more economical than gasoline.

But, if we use this new price of $.1226, the price is $68/million BTU.
And figuring gas at the average Arizona price of $3.50 USA and Canada Current Average Gas Prices By City/State/Province - GasBuddy.com
We get $27.63/million BTU.

I mean, I guess the OP could:
1) Start an "Industry" in Washington State
2) Make HHO in Washington
3) Transport it to Arizona via Unicorn Super Highway
4) ????
5) Profit!

Since we are making stuff up... and we are all bound to be transported to the unicorn corral, let’s assume:
1) The above steps 1-3 have absolutely no cost
2) The electrolysis machine has absolutely no cost
3) He will be able to store it in his Unicorn stables at absolutely no cost
4) The necessary mods to his car have absolutely no cost

He would save $3.55/million BTU, or the equivalent of roughly $0.44 cents per gallon.
Seems legit.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I don't feel belittled, because you haven't proven anything I've said wrong.

In looking back a little bit, it appears you only come out of the woodwork when HHO comes up. The "scam" thread says it all and it appears you have some confusion about who got spanked.

Frank,

My interest in HHO is simply because the really interesting things happen at the extremes; the very small, large, fast, slow, etc. I love the things that defy conventional explanation. It's my idea of fun.

I guess the reason I seem to come out when HHO is mentioned is actually happenstance. As I mentioned, I was actually looking at YOUR air dam mod.

And if you will look at all of my previous posts- you'll see how I may comment on the physics and chemistry, but not that I endorse any of it.

My weakness is that I hate bullies- and that's what y'all turn into when HHO is mentioned. That's my issue. And again, it's why we're having words.

But if you are now agreeing that the Second Law pertains solely to isolated systems- something the ICE's we are discussing are NOT- and therefore agree that those who use the tired, old electrolysis "more energy out than in" argument are more deserving of your scorn than a person who may wish to investigate HHO, then yes- I was wrong about who got spanked and will humbly apologize.

But am I wrong? Do you still believe the Second Law any system other than an isolated one? Because if you now understand I will be interested in seeing if you treat some of this forum's senior members with the same contempt you showed the OP.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by mikeyjd

I was referring to the valuable information and discussion, but choose to see it how you will

Good scientists are tolerant of different ideas, and the more different the better.

The thread lost any usefulness when the attacks started, and I my opinion, serves only to demonstrate the insecurities of the small and close-minded.