Maximum vehicle weight to meet 2025 54.5 mpg requirement?

[aardvarcus]

On topic:
I think the car can be significantly heavier and meet the requirements, assuming it has some sort of hybrid powertrain to recapture the energy spent accelerating upon braking. Assuming a car has a decently efficient version of this, then the only other concern is the amount of energy spent on the highway, as the heavier car will have more frictional losses to to increased weight on the bearings, tires, etcetera as well as requiring heavier duty drivetrain parts to deal with the added strain of the weight.

Off topic:
So now people who drive trucks that have a transfer case and a front differential are murderers? What did a transfer case/front differential ever do to you? I own and drive a Toyota Celica, which by most accounts is a very light small car. But to a motorcycle it is a giant machine of death! Does that make me a murderer for driving a 2500lb car?

I also own a 100% stock truck, because I actually build things and do productive things with my time, and sometimes I need to haul something that won’t fit in my car. Note a lot of stuff will fit in my car. My truck is usually empty when I leave my house, but full when I come back or vise versa. How on earth would I ever get anything moved anywhere if the truck has to be full of stuff when I leave or I come back? At some point the truck has to be moved empty (gasp through a residential area) if you expect to actually move anything.

The truck is also a four wheel drive truck, because my wife is a nurse and must get to work regardless of whether or not there is snow on the ground. So when there is snow on the ground I guess all the medical personnel should close the hospital and let the patients die, because they will be murderers if they drive a 4x4 truck?

And I don’t know about anyone else, but if I am in my car I would much much rather be hit by a Tacoma with a 4 inch lift kit, steel bumper, and mud tires than by a tractor trailer or other commercial truck. I would rather deal with the mismatch in bumpers than a 10x heavier vehicle. And while we are on the subject, a small truck with a 4” lift kit is probably the same height as a full size truck. So my truck is the same height as the evil machines of death.

Most places have bumper laws that specify minimum and maximum heights for bumpers. As long as your bumper is within the specified range, what is the problem? Why is the person with the taller bumper any more at fault than the person with the lower bumper?

If you want to talk about aggressive drivers, like I said I drive a Celica which is a very small car. People who drive larger cars than me, such as people who drive a Camry, typically drive more aggressively towards me, tailgating, cutting me off, etcetera. That stuff rarely happens when I drive my truck. Probably 20 to 1 difference in occurrence or more. Why do you think people want to drive larger vehicles?

Even given that, I choose to daily drive my small Celica. That is a risk based decision I made. Nobody made it for me, and if I get into a wreck and my car is dangerous due to it’s small size, I have nobody to blame but myself.

Unless you are on a 50cc moped, there is someone out there in a smaller car than you. Have you considered the problem is how you drive and not what you drive? The problem is with the people not the machines. The whole world is convinced that everything is someone else’s fault. Does anyone have a sense of personal responsibility anymore? Car manufacturers could build cars with structural bumper up higher and with bigger crumple zones that would better mesh with trucks. Does anyone know why they don’t? Because the consumers don’t demand it. I guarantee that if starting tomorrow, no consumer anywhere would buy a car without such a bumper system, every car on the dealer lot would have that system in less than a month.

I understand that there are a few true cases of people with dangerous cars/trucks that cause accident. I don’t think a Tacoma with a 4” lift kit, or a full size that happens to have a transfer case and front axle is in that category.

[NeilBlanchard]

Aerodynamics is more important than weight. Stop and go driving is hurt by weight, but any speed above 28-30MPH aero drag is by far the largest loss. Weight adds kinetic energy, and coasting can 'reclaim' some of that energy, but aero drag is always a total loss.

Also, why limit this to existing drivetrains? Almost any EV can nearly *double* this rating, already.

[elhigh]

Okay, Yoyo, I'm going to cut to the chase:

You're highly opinionated. Opinions are like farts: you generally aren't offended by your own.

Driving is an act of faith and commitment. When I get on the road, I am committing myself to operating my vehicle in a safe manner. I am putting my faith in others doing the same.

The vehicle isn't what is dangerous. The person operating it is. This may sound an awful lot like the "guns don't kill people" argument and there's a reason for that. Inanimate objects are objects. How they are used is what makes the difference.

We could even rephrase the quote: "Pool cues don't kill people." "Pit bulls don't kill people." "Boeing 757s don't kill people."

Now, do I believe a lifted 4x4 is as intrinsically safe as any other vehicle? Maybe, maybe not. We'd have to argue about "intrinsically safe," and that would take up a fair portion of the internet. Obviously the vehicle has been altered from its original design, a design which is arguably well thought out by smart people versed in the art. But the alterations generally aren't pulled directly from some inexperienced dolt's nether regions, either, so while it is altered, is it worse?

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It is anecdotes arranged and couched into as damning a context as possible.

If lifted 4x4s are illegal where you are, your battle cry to keep lifted 4x4s off the road is pointless. A statute exists, violators are in violation thereof and your stridency is merely adding to the louder sirens and flashing lights of law enforcement. Step back and let the man with the badge do his job.

If you are attempting to change how things are in areas besides where you live, please stop. You are not part of the constituency. Either let the unwashed barbarian Americans figure things out for themselves or just shake your head in superior bewilderment as we mash each other to bloody bits on the highway.

Is there an excuse to own a 4x4? Absolutely. Chief among them: "Because I can."
How about a truck? Please see above.
Even if I don't carry a load every day? Of course. For one thing, I might need to carry a load tomorrow. If that is insufficient reason, refer to Reason #1.

I understand you're merely voicing an opinion and of course you are entitled to it, but don't for a moment make the mistake of thinking that being louder, longer winded and supporting your stance with lots of videos will make me side with you.

Thanks for your time. My apologies to everyone for the threadjack, I will not comment further off-topic.

[elhigh]

Looking at White Whale's results and Big Dave's results, both in full size trucks, vehicle mass is clearly not everything. It can be a lot and obviously in the city it will be a huge factor.

I haven't kept up with this topic. Will light duty trucks finally be expected to toe a line? We might expect to see something like the old Ford "Tonka" hydraulic hybrid concept come to the showroom floor.

[bigchelis]

Well, one easy and out of the box solution would be to lineX the entire cars in lieu of paint.


Just watch Myth Busters episode on this

[sarguy01]

On topic, imagine how big a 2,500 lb car is and what options it will have. My Civic weighs 2,400 lbs and it "only" has power locks and windows. No power seats or heated anything. No cameras, no subwoofer, no anything. So, the new non-hybrid cars are going to stay pretty small. I don't mind, but selling them to the public might be a different story. I know people like their room in cars, plus, with our society of people who, ummm, well, can be bigger (trying to be PC!!), not everyone can fit in a Civic comfortably. With me at 160 pounds, put a 200 lb person in the passenger seat and unless we both keep our arms close to our bodies, we are touching. I know more than a few guys who weigh more than 200 lbs. They usually don't want to drive a little Civic. Maybe an Accord (just sticking with Honda here...), but you aren't going to get close to 54.5 mpg in a regular Accord. Just a thought.

Off topic, while I would not want to get hit by a truck, or a bicycle for that matter, I don't mind lifted trucks. They are ALL OVER the place where I live. Yet, I don't hear anything on the news about lifted trucks killing and destroying cars and people. If those people want to throw money away in the form of gas, lift kits, tires, wheels, etc, they have the right to.

While adding a big steel bumper to a truck changes the way the truck crumples when it hits something, there are still crumple zones on the frame. On a Dodge Ram, there are dimples in the four corners of the front steel frame for about 8", if my memory serves me correct. With that steel bumper, the frame will still absorb some of the impact. It's not like people are cutting their truck frames and adding in steel plates to make the frame not absorb the impact.

Truthfully, I am more much worried about getting hit by a drunk driver or a distracted driver that has no clue (and therefore cannot react at all) that a collision is coming.

[yoyoyoda]

Most of these vehicles are nearing 2 tons or heavier, simple physics dictates that the heavier car will protrude into the body of a smaller car.

Taking smaller cars and their fuel efficient occupants prematurely off the roads is not very good for fuel economy.

I don't want to die. Simple as that. If it were up to me we would all be driving around in plastic bubbles shaped like raindrops. But apparently having a death machine on the road is somehow cool and fashionable now.

The longer we keep ecomodders on the road the better it is for the environment.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1804166

Things have infact gotten so insane here that I'm thinking about wearing an open face helmet while driving (so airbags are unaffected), and getting my passenger to do so too.


An ecomodder at their wedding in 2025?

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/02/3d-printed-car/
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/11/27...llons-of-fuel/
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ations-feature

Hidden within this web of rules are a number of subtleties. For example, the nominal 54.5-mpg requirement represents a certain reduction in the tailpipe emissions of carbon dioxide. The actual mpg requirement will be more like 49.6, with the rest of the greenhouse-gas reduction coming from a change to higher-efficiency air-conditioning systems using more environmentally friendly refrigerant.

The manufacturers will also get mpg credits for adopting efficient technologies that often show no effect on the official test cycles. These include active grille shutters, electric heat pumps, stop-start systems, high-efficiency lights, and solar roof panels. The credit for such items could amount to about 3 mpg if several are used or even more if a manufacturer provides data to justify it.

Then there’s extra credit for electric, plug-in hybrid, and fuel-cell vehicles. These machines already garner very high CAFE ratings, as they use little or no gasoline, but to encourage their sales, the government will factor each sale of an electric vehicle by 2.0 in model year 2017. In other words, if you sell 10,000 electric vehicles—either battery powered or fuel cell—they will be counted as 20,000 when calculating that company’s fleet fuel economy. This factor will phase down to a multiplier of 1.5 by 2021. For plug-in hybrids, the factor will start at 1.6 in 2017 and phase down to 1.3 in 2021.

Recognizing that full-size pickups have been slow to adopt hybrid technology, there will be separate incentives for “mild” and “strong” hybrid trucks if they are sold in sufficient quantity. There will also be credit for natural-gas–powered vehicles to match their reduction in greenhouse gases. Conversely, for CAFE purposes, oil burners are not penalized for the higher carbon content of diesel fuel.

By the looks of things the truck is a thing of the past:

If these standards remain in place, expect to see some degree of  hybridization eventually spread through at least half of the fleet. Even though the regulations are footprint based, the formulas still encourage some downsizing, and we’d expect to see some of that as well. Finally, when it comes to large luxury cars, weight savings will be a must. Expect the S-class of the future to be constructed largely of aluminum, with enhanced weight savings coming from carbon-fiber parts such as hoods, trunklids and roof panels. Or it might be as radical as the Mercedes F125 concept.

Very soon, sometime maybe in this century, maybe next decade, this forum will discard the small/light truck menace and everybody will be driving plastic raindrop shaped vehicles as light as a feather.

know how I know? There is going to be a gradual shift towards lighter and lighter cars. Eventually the small/light trucks will be phased out on the roadways not only because of fuel economy concerns but also emissions and safety concerns.

The Walmart truck, made from carbon fiber, light as a feather, strong as steel, you probably cannot afford carbon fiber, neither can I, so I guess we will just have to gradually phase out those cars made from steel and bring in cars made from plastic.

Its probably going to happen, there has been a shift towards more and more plastic in cars as time goes on, eventually we will probably all be driving them, as the old steel cars go to the garbage dump.

Oops, another fatailty on the roads, its one of those steel cars again, what a menace they are, why can't the people just go out and buy a car made from plastic or carbon fiber?. My goodness look at all of that blood, I guess you cannot crash a light truck into a car made from plastic and expect to walk away from it, the occupants have a tendency to go splat you know... like eggs on the sidewalk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncfCZX0uFZ4

This is a forum founded firmly in science. Throw a large steel ball bearing at a brick wall some time and see what happens to the brick wall. Try the same thing but made from plastic. One is going to crack the bricks because it has more kinetic energy and mass than the hollowed out plastic one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpiV2I_IRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQUGk12S8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTh5knIF5dk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glcDR3cNQlQ

http://www.plastics-car.com/Blog/Lig...to-Makers.html



If you own a raised small/light truck and lower it so its safer not only do you gain fuel economy but you will increase safety for other road users.

[brucey]

This thread makes me want to go buy a Hummer.

Back on topic, I think aerodynamics and hybrid/electronic solenoid valve control will go a lot further than weight alone. Weight is just the easiest method.

[aardvarcus]

Originally Posted by yoyoyoda

Why are you on this forum anyway? Unless you deliver fairy floss and flowers with that truck of yours I don't see it working on here. All of which can be delivered by a bicycle by the way.

I am on this forum because I have a car EPA rated at 23 combined and my 90 day fuel log is at 36.8. You also have a car EPA rated at 23 mpg and your 90 day is a whopping 18.5, which according to your fuel log on of the entries is “Rough estimate, not from receipt but from memory” and the other entry is “Put my head out the window and barked like a dog at women. Went to the beach and howled at the moon and left the engine running. Done backflips, round kicks, choked some men and lusted after Gabrielle.”

You said yourself, “This is a forum founded firmly in science.” Do your fuel log entries look like good science? Where I am from, science is measured by good data that demonstrates results, not by who posts the most links to videos on the internet.

Also, I agree that my truck doesn’t work on here; it works in real life doing things. No, the truck has not delivered fairy floss but one time it did deliver flowers. It typically delivers building supplies to construction sites. I did not realize this was a fairy floss and flowers type of forum, I thought this was a forum about doing and accomplishing things.

[sarguy01]

Originally Posted by aardvarcus

I am on this forum because I have a car EPA rated at 23 combined and my 90 day fuel log is at 36.8. You also have a car EPA rated at 23 mpg and your 90 day is a whopping 18.5, which according to your fuel log on of the entries is “Rough estimate, not from receipt but from memory” and the other entry is “Put my head out the window and barked like a dog at women. Went to the beach and howled at the moon and left the engine running. Done backflips, round kicks, choked some men and lusted after Gabrielle.”

You said yourself, “This is a forum founded firmly in science.” Do your fuel log entries look like good science? Where I am from, science is measured by good data that demonstrates results, not by who posts the most links to videos on the internet.

Also, I agree that my truck doesn’t work on here; it works in real life doing things. No, the truck has not delivered fairy floss but one time it did deliver flowers. It typically delivers building supplies to construction sites. I did not realize this was a fairy floss and flowers type of forum, I thought this was a forum about doing and accomplishing things.

Completely off topic. I really have to stop reading forums while drinking hot liquids. I feel the long term effect of shooting them through my nose when laughing may lead to a reduced sense of smell, or worse.

Back on topic, here is a question to ponder...what technology will there be 11 years from now? We now are seeing direct injection engines, Skyactiv, Hyundai's new spark plug-less gasoline engine, etc so there will probably be a few more major changes to current engine design to aid in better fuel economy.