Metro-powered sports car project

[Christ]

Originally Posted by JackMcCornack

jamesqf notes...
> ...Hondas (and Toyotas etc) are just nicely broken in at 100K, when your typical American cars are about ready for that trip to the recycler

The Chevy/Geo Metro qualifies as an "etc" (Suzuki made 'em, GM badged 'em).

Christ writes...
> ...As to the OP's claim of engine swap ability - This alone would make me want it.

The fly in the engine swap ointment is the long (wide?) four cylinder engines use an offset transaxle--however I can't think of a reason not to use the 1.3 liter transaxle with a 993 engine so it could still be an easy swap. I'm also considering making the rear subframe assembly a bolt-on instead of a weld-on, which would make the engine swap operation maybe 20 times harder than changing a tire (though you'd need two transaxles and two sets of wheels/brakes/axles/shocks/etc and the bulk of the wiring and the computer would have to stay with the subframe). Anyway, I wasn't thinking literally of swapping engines in one car depending on my mood, I was thinking that if somebody wanted to build a fast one, they could, rather than build themself one optimized for mileage.

I think this is where we had something confused - I thought you'd be mounting the setup longitudinally, instead of transverse, and using the same bellhousing pattern for the Geo's engine, but not actually using the Geo's transaxle.

For instance, a RWD T45 transmission with a Cast aluminum bell housing that was a match to the T45's gear box and the G-series bell pattern.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Christ

And; without having any firsthand knowledge, what exactly are you basing your opinion on? Oh - You're basing your opinion on someone else's (possibly uneducated) opinion, aren't you?

I'm not basing my opinion on anything but my own observations (which I freely admit are hardly a scientifically-controlled survey), and public information such as lists of top vehicles traded in under C4C. So what are you basing your opinion on, anything better? Got any sort of objective measure of quality, such as say average mileage before junking, or average repair costs to 200K miles or so?

[Christ]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

I'm not basing my opinion on anything but my own observations (which I freely admit are hardly a scientifically-controlled survey), and public information such as lists of top vehicles traded in under C4C. So what are you basing your opinion on, anything better? Got any sort of objective measure of quality, such as say average mileage before junking, or average repair costs to 200K miles or so?

My first 3 cars were all american, all late 70's and 80's, and all ran perfectly with over 200,000 miles on them.

2 of them were Chrysler Aspen variants, both with 225 Slant 6's, and the third was a '89 Olds Delta 88, with the Chevy 5.7 Diesel (which they should have kept on the damned assembly lines.)

The Olds was far from remarkable in terms of reliability, but once you got the hang on checking things periodically, you could easily keep up with it to the extent that it was only a matter of time, not spending butt-loads of money on maintenance and repairs.

When I said that reliability is a function of vehicle maintenance, I meant it exactly that way. I didn't mean it would cost you any less or more than another type of car, I meant that if you don't maintain your crap, it's going to be crap. If you keep up with your ride, it'll stay nice.

Maintenance costs are a function of availability and manufacturer pricing, so even those are relative. Cost of ownership is based, in part at least, on both of those parameters... How soon will something need maintenance, and how much will that maintenance cost? But Cost of Ownership isn't the issue here, is it?

Adding to the "reliability" of american built vehicles, there's a Ford F-150 in my yard that hasn't had oil added (or changed) all summer, and it smokes like crazy every time you start it.. (used to anyway, either it fixed itself, or ran out of oil... don't really care which). We've been using it to pull trailers around the yard, move inoperative cars, and generally as a work vehicle, gathering wood and such for the home. It stopped smoking about 3 weeks ago, and has since had about 30 hours of run time... it still starts up every time. Before it was used for this purpose, it was a DD for a friend of mine, and had approx 130k put on it, IIRC, with no major issues. When it started leak oil onto the header, from the valve cover of the 300 inline 6 cylinder, he sold it to my Father for a small fee and we started using it for a work truck. Sure, it's rusty.. but it's also a 1979 F150... it's bound to have SOMETHING wrong.

Try doing that with a Toyota Tundra.

[evolutionmovement]

The Metro engine is small, cheap, and comes with the car, so why complicate it?

I have a friend that only pays cash to buy the cheapest new American cars he can find and beats the bag out of them. If he gets less than 300k miles out of them before transmission or engine failure, he considers them junk (and these are the cheapest and smallest of the domestic cars). His Cavalier blew a head gasket last summer and he gave it to the gas station he stopped at. Car had 315k. He could have fixed it, but figured that was good enough (especially where it was trashed from being overloaded with weight, used to pull stubborn cable out of the ground, and had been sliced full of holes from a load of rebar that fell off a truck on the highway in front of him).

I think that a great reason for much of Toyota's reputation for reliability is that the cars are so boring that the people who drive them don't abuse them. Reliability is also a little bit a matter of perception—some GM and Toyota cars, identical outside of the bodies and both built in the NUMMI plant, have different ratings, with the GM cars rated worse for reliability. Because of Toyota's rep, they tend to get away with more (like the sludge engine failures of a few years ago).

The domestics made some crap and there are still a few lousy cars they make, but they've made some cars that will take a beating I dare any Eurotrash to try to match (first-hand experience with 70-80's muscle cars) and most of their new cars are as good (and often more interesting or attractive) than the japanese. I was a die-hard Subaru guy, but I'd have to be paid to drive the ugly, boring, overweight garbage they put out now. Were I forced to buy a new car, I'd have no problem going domestic over Japanese. Hell, my Mazda 3 has plenty of Ford in it and, boring it may be, it's a good car. Almost 100k (Ford 2.3 with Mazda top end) and it doesn't seem to be slowing down at all.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Christ

Try doing that with a Toyota Tundra.

Well, the Tundra's way too new for me, but there's an '88 Toyota 4WD in my driveway. I've had it 3 years, maybe 4, and in that time have done zero work on it, other than putting in a CD player. Now I grant you that I don't drive it all that much - haven't quite made it to the 10K mile oil change interval yet - but when I do, it's doing things like hauling logs for firewood, or heading up roads way too rough for the Insight. Starts every time, even after sitting for months, and unlike your Ford, it not only doesn't smoke, it passes its annual smog check by a wide margin :-)

[Christ]

LOL We don't have smog checks here, and the Ford quit smoking a while back when it ran out of oil.

I actually stuck a dipstick in there and checked it the other day while I was unloading the van... bone dry. Pulled the dipstick back out and threw it back in the pile of Ford parts.

[Bruce]

Back on topic....

Jack,

This sounds like a great project and I'll be following it with interest. I've also wondered how a minimal sports car based on a Metro would work. I have the Locost book and would be interested in yours.

Any updates?

Thanks,
Bruce

[JackMcCornack]

Wrote Bruce:
> Back on topic....

Yeah, it's been a while. This thread morphed into a foreign-vs-domestic thread, but I let it go 'cause I got my answer (the answer was yes, there are other people interested in the concept) so I'm going to carry on with the project.

> Any updates?

No, just my thanks to those who've given me encouraging words.

MetroMPG suggested that...
> It'd also be fun to see any doodles you have kicking around! (I have a feeling more than a couple of napkins have met this fate already.)

I don't doodle much. I'm not very good at it. No napkins have met that fate, though a couple of Metros and a Swift have. I have an engine/trans/strut/LCA mount placement fixture welded up, and CAD drawings of the engine/trans mount bits ready to go to the laser shop (CAD has been my salvation as an artist) but my plan is to build a chassis and make sure everything fits before I take a serious look at the body.

At present, I haven't even decided if it will have a deDion rear suspension or Chapman strut rear suspension. I was leaning toward deDion when this car was going to be a roadster but as a coupe it's not a big deal and deDion will be more difficult (and more pricy as well) than struts. I want this car to be easy and inexpensive to build, like a Locost only moreso, and I'm calling it the Skate mostly so I can get a "cheap Skate" joke on the book cover--the Cheapskate will be the rat rod version (cycle fenders, flat sidepanels, exposed engine and suspension), the Skate will be the aero version which, sadly, is going to take some time and money.

But most important, I have an obligation to aero up a Locost first, so the Skate has to Wate 'till the MAX project is done.

[jamesqf]

Just a thought for the future projects list: how about an Aptera knockoff? Say using the power train from a Honda GoldWing, or some other bike with a water cooled and fuel-injected motor? (The GoldWings, at 1200 cc up, are really too much engine, but I don't know what else is out there.) Add front suspension & steering, and an aerodynamic body shell using fiberglass over foam construction techniques from the experimental aircraft world...

[JackMcCornack]

> Just a thought for the future projects list: how about an Aptera knockoff?

My problem is finding the time to do the projects already on my list...seriously, I'm 61, how many projects do I have left in me?

But an Aptera knockoff doesn't appeal to me. The Aptera seems to be too high and too narrow for anything but electric propulsion (batteries are heavy and can be mounted low), I find RQ Riley's latest three wheeler considerably more my style.

I do think the Aptera is a good bet for the side-by-side alternative award in the PIAXP, which is worth two point five million dollars, so as a task specific vehicle it's a good one.