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Old 12-06-2017, 01:21 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Funny, I picked that example having been unaware of current headlines. Perfect example of what I'm talking about though.
I may or may not have known what was found where before Xist pointed it out.

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Old 12-06-2017, 01:31 AM   #132 (permalink)
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What about if a black person asks for a sandwich at a white-run diner?

Is the gay cake thing materially different?
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:00 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Natalya, that sure seems different. Redpoint seems to be saying that anyone should be able to refuse to service anyone, for any reason, or for no reason. Who would have the burden of proof, the would-be customer, or the employee? If you run the last gas station for 100 miles, and I am out of gas, but you refuse to sell to me for any reason, you are causing me problems for apparently no reason. If I am your abusive ex-boyfriend and you are trying to get a restraining order because I keep coming to your work and harassing you, but order a sandwich each time, should you be able to tell me to leave if I am not breaking any law?

Hey! Back on-topic! If you run a gluten-free bakery and I ask for a cake with gluten, should you be able to deny me sweet gluteny cake goodness?
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:43 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Harassment is a crime and you can get a restraining order if an ex is harassing you.

Seriously though. Is there a difference between a white diner owner not wanting to serve black people and a christian wedding cake shop owner not wanting to serve gay people?

I mean sandwiches and cakes are both foods, it's the owner vs the patron, its refusal of service.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:47 AM   #135 (permalink)
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There is a difference between not serving gays and not making a gay wedding cake.

There are more words in the second one.

I am not sure any other differences are appropriate for this forum.
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:02 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Xist View Post
If you run the last gas station for 100 miles, and I am out of gas, but you refuse to sell to me for any reason, you are causing me problems for apparently no reason.
Why would someone refuse to sell you fuel? Unless you're being a jerk, the owner is going to want to sell the overpriced fuel to you. If someone is being a jerk, they should be refused service.

Of course there would be some instances of unfair denials of service, but they would be rare, and we can chose to boycott these businesses. I've stopped making purchases at places that treated me unfairly, and I've also stopped shopping at a place that treated my friend poorly.

Businesses that routinely (or even just once) disrespect customers are not likely to be successful.

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Seriously though. Is there a difference between a white diner owner not wanting to serve black people and a christian wedding cake shop owner not wanting to serve gay people?

I mean sandwiches and cakes are both foods, it's the owner vs the patron, its refusal of service.
No, there isn't a material difference. Businesses serve sandwiches to black people because they have money, not because the law requires them to be served. If gay people want a wedding cake, there are businesses happy to take their money.

If someone walks into a bakery owned by a gay person and orders a cake that says "no gay marriage", should the baker be required by law to make it?

It isn't up to the law to determine what is acceptably offensive and what is unacceptably offensive. Any rule must be applied evenly. Either business owners are required to fulfill any order a customer places, or they reserve the right to refuse service for any reason. The number of things a person could find offensive is infinite, and it isn't useful to tie up courts trying to decide which of the infinite things are acceptably offensive, and which are unacceptably offensive.

BTW- My application at an apartment was recently denied. It was annoying, but I'm all for their right to refuse to do business with me. I don't want to live somewhere that I'm not wanted, and besides, I found a better place that does want my money.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:27 AM   #137 (permalink)
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While I'm no advocate for racism, sexism, or other -isms that result in unkind behavior, I'm even more against forced labor. Who is to say what supposed voluntary laborers should be required to produce? If the law is applied, it must be applied evenly, without "prejudice".
Definitely with you here, but with some caveats. It's not nearly so prevalent today, but historically there are plenty of examples of groups unfairly discriminated against so widely that there really wasn't any alternative open to them, in terms of businesses to patronize.

How do you feel about, for instance, a black or latino family looking to buy a house and having real estate agents (who may live in these neighborhoors and have a vested interest) turning them out to keep the neighborhoods from having minorities? Not even discussing private sales, or agency policies. Granted, it may not be advisable to move into one of those neighborhoods to begin with, but this is relatively common. There are only so many agents that can represent one house.


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Allowing a business to charge customers differing amounts based on gender is clearly more egregious than an artist refusing to produce something they find offensive. To rule that one is acceptable while the other is not is a conspicuous display of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy.
Funny that we tend to see a lot of the former in most "bargaining" type transactions. Women, statistically, pay more for cars off dealer lots, because they're targeted and profiled. This is a voluntary transaction on both sides, but even if it's not an institutional problem, it's definitely systematic and good luck finding a dealer that isn't doing this.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:54 AM   #138 (permalink)
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I posted a video on Facebook of me swapping out my PCV valve. The video was 25 seconds long and mostly showed me fumbling with pliers. A female-type friend commented "Good for you! That is above my skill level!"

Fumbling with pliers?

I know a woman that is forty-one and has never changed a tire because she can always get someone else to do it. She says she does not know how and does not want to.

Then there is this:

Quote:
I’ll start a movement called ‘It’s ok to be a man’

Women just don’t appreciate the daily struggle. Random people at the supermarket thinking it’s perfectly ok to just ask you to get them something off the top shelf.

Do I look like I was put here just to do your manual labor? How about a hello first? Nah, they just want me for my body.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:00 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Even if you account for women on average knowing less about cars, there's still a difference in what they get at a dealership.

Maybe if we can get rid of the laws that prevent manufacturers (*ehem* Tesla) from bypassing dealerships...
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:22 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalya
What about if a black person asks for a sandwich at a white-run diner?

Is the gay cake thing materially different?
If your really interested, it's mapped out in the Lionel Nation episode I pointed out at Permalink #128. It's long and he's a windbag (ex-legal prosecutor).

Long story short, the difference is in accommodation vs artistic expression. If the cake is already on the shelf, the situation changes.

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