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Old 06-23-2008, 11:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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if these hydrogen booster lowered temps on the motor that would be a benificial aspect of them even if the don't add MPG.. a cooler running motor does mean its more efficient

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Old 06-23-2008, 11:37 PM   #22 (permalink)
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HHO generators are seriously ruining this site for me.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Kevlar,
Water injection is one of the few proven techniques for using water to help your engine
but it is not used as "fuel"
-it is used to modify the thermodynamics and combustion characteristics in the cylinder

check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

it is old school - like WWII into the 50s and 60s
- many of the high performance military piston engines had it
could be used in Ecomodding
- I knew people that did it in the 80s and got some benefit (few MPG)
but engines are better now and may not be worth the cost and weight anymore

unfortunately this concept is often lost in with the HHO chaos
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:50 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebacherville View Post
if these hydrogen booster lowered temps on the motor that would be a benificial aspect of them even if the don't add MPG.. a cooler running motor does mean its more efficient
I haven't seen HHO lowering temperatures anywhere?

The consesus seems to be that HHO speeds up flame front allowing for a leaner burn (thus hotter) without detonation.

But does that mean the engine will run cooler with no mixture changes?

I've seen on a few forums people who've tried HHO reporting a different exhaust note while HHO is being added (one guy even posted that his exhaust had changed note, and on inspection found that the HHO generator had broken).
A common theory is that combustion is finished earlier before the exhaust values open... could that allow more heat to be scavanged on the exhaust stroke?
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:19 AM   #25 (permalink)
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It's not a conspiracy -- it's physics. No conspiracy theorist will ever be convinced by any facts, because every response is another conspiracy by shadowy interests and there's always another "but..." the theorist will throw out.

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For what it's worth....... My opinion...... If we can fly to the moon and walk on it.........We can......
That analogy only shows that one can come up with poor analogies that don't prove anything.

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if these hydrogen booster lowered temps on the motor that would be a benificial aspect of them even if the don't add MPG.. a cooler running motor does mean its more efficient
That's incorrect. If you're reducing combustion temperatures (which must be happening if the engine is running cooler due to HHO), it's a tenet of physics that you're losing thermodynamic efficiency.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:06 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
That's incorrect. If you're reducing combustion temperatures (which must be happening if the engine is running cooler due to HHO), it's a tenet of physics that you're losing thermodynamic efficiency.
In that video, the engine runs cooler due to very lean mixures or late timing. That is not due to the hydrogen, the use of hydrogen just allows that to be done. They seem to be saying that if you time the engine for later firing, the hot gas stays in contact with the engine walls for less time, thus less heat is transfered to the body of the engine, thus efficiency rises as less heat is wasted heating up parts of the engine.

Also, for this to really be optimized, an engine would get rid of the oxygen sensor and the throttle body to reduce pumping loss and allow really lean mixtures. In an unmodified engine I think the only gain would be from late timing.

The improvements that are happening here are because parasitic losses of the engine are being reduced. I don't think the theoretical engine cycle is being changed.

JamesLaugesen, Thanks for the link!
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:32 AM   #27 (permalink)
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are you guys talking about hydrogen injection (similar to nitrous oxide injection kits)?
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:37 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I have built one, still experimenting with it tho, one site that I found very informing was www.smacksboosters.110mb.com I will put up some pics of mine the next time I have it out
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:17 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttoyoda View Post
In that video, the engine runs cooler due to very lean mixures or late timing. That is not due to the hydrogen, the use of hydrogen just allows that to be done. They seem to be saying that if you time the engine for later firing, the hot gas stays in contact with the engine walls for less time, thus less heat is transfered to the body of the engine, thus efficiency rises as less heat is wasted heating up parts of the engine.
Well, I don't have time to waste watching the whole series, and the later timing theory wasn't discussed in that one video above. He did mention exactly what I said (and linked to) about thermodynamic efficiency.

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Originally Posted by ttoyoda View Post
Also, for this to really be optimized, an engine would get rid of the oxygen sensor and the throttle body to reduce pumping loss and allow really lean mixtures. In an unmodified engine I think the only gain would be from late timing.

The improvements that are happening here are because parasitic losses of the engine are being reduced. I don't think the theoretical engine cycle is being changed.
Flow obstructions are not the same thing as pumping losses -- oxygen sensors don't cause pumping losses.

In an unmodified engine, later timing would cause worse performance overall, causing less useful energy to be extracted -- the temperature of the engine might go down, but the temperature of the exhaust would be higher, so the efficiency would be worse. Timing is always BTDC because flame front travel is not instantaneous; you get the maximum energy extraction if the combustion pressure is not "chasing" the piston down, as would happen with late timing.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:04 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Well, I don't have time to waste watching the whole series,
So you have no idea what the series is about or what data is presented. Excellent.
Quote:
and the later timing theory wasn't discussed in that one video above.
Durrr.

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Flow obstructions are not the same thing as pumping losses -- oxygen sensors don't cause pumping losses.
I never said they did. Oxy sensors would be un-needed in a system that ran lean. They would have to be disabled in order to let the car injection system run lean.

Quote:
In an unmodified engine, later timing would cause worse performance overall, causing less useful energy to be extracted -- the temperature of the engine might go down, but the temperature of the exhaust would be higher, so the efficiency would be worse. Timing is always BTDC because flame front travel is not instantaneous; you get the maximum energy extraction if the combustion pressure is not "chasing" the piston down, as would happen with late timing.
No kidding. But we are talking about doing modifications, and the whole point is reducing parasitic losses. All of this is dealt with in the videos you cannot be bothered to watch. So I cannot be bothered with explaining it to you.

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