Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-20-2009, 07:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
chuckm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Monroe, LA
Posts: 308

Exploder - '02 Ford Explorer xlt

Rolla - '02 Toyota Corolla ce
Team Toyota
90 day: 44.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 11
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
I typically take a 5% hit on my FE with ethanol. I suspect the 10% hit that some are taking is the result of ethanol's affinity for water. E-10 will actually pull moisture from the air, up to 0.5%.

__________________
"Jesus didn't bring 'Natty Lite' to the party. He brought the good stuff."
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 09-20-2009, 07:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
Driving the TurboWeasel
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Steuben County, NY
Posts: 459
Thanks: 14
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
That could be. My car has an 18-gallon tank, and frequently runs for a week or two at a time with 10 or fewer gallons in the tank. So I can see how E10 drawing water into itself when it has a lot of surface area is doable.

But that begs the question of how the water gets in there in the first place. Possibly through leaky gaskets or when the evap canister draws in fresh air?
__________________
2012 Chevrolet Cruze Eco 6MT
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2009, 07:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
...beats walking...
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,190
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,522 Times in 1,123 Posts
...from the EPA website:

GASOLINE lower heating value: 116,090 BTU/gal
ETHANOL lower heating value: 76,330 BTU/gal

...thus, ethanol has only 2/3's the ENERGY content of typical gasoline, although it does have a much higher OCTANE (anti-knock) value:

GASOLINE: RON = 88-98, MON = 80-88.
ETHANOL: RON = 116, MON = 112

...unfortunately, OCTANE is only useful to high-compression engines and supercharging, while ENERGY content is indicative of power and fuel economy. That's why E85 has a higher OCTANE value of 105, but actually results in 2-10% loss in power and fuel economy. If the engine had variable compression ratio (CR), most of the power loss could be reclaimed using E85 (which can use higher CR), but not the fuel economy.

...so, "yes," non-alcohol gasoline will yield better milage.

...FYI: GASOHOL is basically E15 (15% ethanol+85% gasoline).

Last edited by gone-ot; 09-20-2009 at 08:00 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2009, 09:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
gascort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 548

Gascort RIP - '93 Ford Escort Wagon
90 day: 43.01 mpg (US)

WifesCruze - '11 Chevrolet Cruze LT
90 day: 31.1 mpg (US)
Thanks: 14
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
My results agree - around 10% worse FE with 10% ethanol.

Bums me out because I used to be a huge supporter, thinking, "we could use 15% in every gallon we sold, displacing money we were spending on oil into money spent on corn, etc." But now I just wish they would put 100% gas in and charge me 10% more, or just put 10% less in my tank. Why make/use it - making it contributes to fossil fuel emissions, and on my car at least, doesn't even push it down the road.

I guess I do see one reason to use 10% - then they can sell 90% ~84 octane gas to you with the ethanol to boost octane to 87.
__________________
Gasoline, Wind, Solar, Gravity Hybrid-to-be! http://www.scientificmethodfueleconomy.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2009, 06:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
Driving the TurboWeasel
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Steuben County, NY
Posts: 459
Thanks: 14
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
^ That's another reason my car runs like poo on E10. The 3800 is designed for straight 87 octane, not 84 octane blended with ethanol to make 87 octane. My car is pre-ignition prone on low-quality 87 octane, so it pulls lots of timing to combat the pre-ignition. Every degree of timing it pulls is ~5 hp lost, so 8-10 degrees of timing pulled is 40-50 hp lost just above idle, when it pings the worst, and isn't making much power to begin with. So the computer dumps more fuel to compensate for the ping, and voila, worse fuel economy.
__________________
2012 Chevrolet Cruze Eco 6MT
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2009, 07:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: california
Posts: 1,329
Thanks: 24
Thanked 161 Times in 107 Posts
The best part is that corn ethanol takes more energy to produce than it contains.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2009, 03:38 PM   #17 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ryland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903

honda cb125 - '74 Honda CB 125 S1
90 day: 79.71 mpg (US)

green wedge - '81 Commuter Vehicles Inc. Commuti-Car

Blue VX - '93 Honda Civic VX
Thanks: 867
Thanked 433 Times in 353 Posts
I've noticed a 12-15% drop with E10, so have my parents who drive the same route every day and for a while made a note as to what kind of gas they put in, the pure gas tends to cost 3-5% more and you get better mileage... and use less gas then if they left left the alcohol out all together!
read up on alcohol engines some time, alcohol engines and gas engines are about as close as gas and diesel engines, sure I've mixed bio-diesel in with my gas and that worked but I'm not sure if it was really worth it, if I used less gas, but I was running a bio-fuel.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2009, 05:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
Hypermiler
 
PaleMelanesian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,320

PaleCivic (retired) - '96 Honda Civic DX Sedan
90 day: 69.2 mpg (US)

PaleFit - '09 Honda Fit Sport
Team Honda
Wagons
90 day: 44.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 610
Thanked 428 Times in 280 Posts
The epa ratings for E85 and Gas on flex-fuel vehicles very closely match the theoretical loss due to the lower energy content of ethanol. Following that same math for E10, you get a 3% reduction.

Example: 2009 Ford Crown Vic
Gas: 16 city / 24 highway
E85: 12 city / 17 highway

GASOLINE lower heating value: 116,090 BTU/gal
ETHANOL lower heating value: 76,330 BTU/gal
E85 = 82,294 BTU/gal
82,294 / 116,090 = 70.9%

16 mpg * 70.9% = 11.34 mpg
24 mpg * 70.9% = 17.0 mpg
__________________



11-mile commute: 100 mpg - - - Tank: 90.2 mpg / 1191 miles

Last edited by PaleMelanesian; 09-21-2009 at 05:09 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2009, 07:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Madison AL
Posts: 1,123

The Geo - '93 Geo Metro
Team Metro
90 day: 45.16 mpg (US)
Thanks: 30
Thanked 40 Times in 37 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99LeCouch View Post
^ That's another reason my car runs like poo on E10. The 3800 is designed for straight 87 octane, not 84 octane blended with ethanol to make 87 octane. My car is pre-ignition prone on low-quality 87 octane, so it pulls lots of timing to combat the pre-ignition. Every degree of timing it pulls is ~5 hp lost, so 8-10 degrees of timing pulled is 40-50 hp lost just above idle, when it pings the worst, and isn't making much power to begin with. So the computer dumps more fuel to compensate for the ping, and voila, worse fuel economy.
Do you have the same engine my dad does?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2009, 09:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
Driving the TurboWeasel
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Steuben County, NY
Posts: 459
Thanks: 14
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
If your dad has a 97 to about 2005 Impala, then I may have the same engine and transmission in a different chassis. 3800 Series II engine and 4T65 transmission in my car. The Impalas were either the 3400 or the 3800. The 4T65 can bolt to either.

Check the engine. If your dad's car has a black plastic upper intake manifold, it's a 3800. If it's flat aluminum stamped with "3400", it's a 3400.

If your dad is managing about 26-27 mpg highway with a 3800-powered Impala, that's about what a W-body gets.

__________________
2012 Chevrolet Cruze Eco 6MT
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Methanol in gasoline Funny EcoModding Central 26 06-12-2012 02:24 AM
Driving the Scanguage for FE Harry6 Hypermiling / EcoDriver's Ed 12 04-02-2010 12:51 PM
Gasoline expected to remain cheap this summer Frank Lee The Lounge 0 04-14-2009 03:43 PM
As I Had Thought Big Dave General Efficiency Discussion 54 09-02-2008 11:00 PM
Basic EcoDriving Techniques and Instrumentation SVOboy Instrumentation 2 11-17-2007 11:38 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com