Are Old Cars the Best?

[Natalya]

I've read a lot of stuff on here.

It seems like newer cars (2005+) usually have huge engines, all manner of bells and whistles, and their bodies just look absolutely ruined when you add any aeromods. Furthermore, they generally weigh more than older cars.

Better safety is obviously important, but it seems like the mods it would take to get, say, a Chevy Spark or Nissan Micra up to 70 mpg are going to much more involved than the mods to get a Civic VX or a Geo Metro up there. Also, the Spark and Micra are just going to cost a lot more because of how new all of them are, even if you buy used.

Do we have to wait 10 years before it becomes cost effective to work on currently modern econoboxes?

Will there become available cheap body modification technology that looks at least slightly better than coroplast signs?

Or by 10 years from now will all cars be so completely optimized for FE that we won't need to buy the cars of today or the 90's in order to mod something into hypermiler range?

[Baltothewolf]

Originally Posted by Natalya

Or by 10 years from now will all cars be so completely optimized for FE that we won't need to buy the cars of today or the 90's in order to mod something into hypermiler range?

This, I think. I get mpg in my Civic that I would struggle and try really hard to get in my old HX. Now I can get it with CC at 70 with the A/C on. Not to mention I have double the power.

[freebeard]

Are Old Cars the Best?

Yes. But only if they are assembled from junkyard parts.



The tow vehicle was a 1964 body on a 1971 pan, the towed vehicle had a 36hp engine good for 40mpg with the stock aerodynamics. Everything is gone now except those Rader wheels.

Once a car has been on the road for 50-60 years it has conserved the embodied energy of three or four new cars. I'm sure the embodied energy is <25% of the rust-to-dust total. I have Plan B up on jackstands in a barn. It's a 1958 Beetle that's getting a Lexus LX400h electric rear axle. Right now I'm at the motor mounts and axles stage. Later comes the junkyard OEM inverters and batteries and chargers and .... the list goes on.

Your example Sparks and Micras don't sound all that old to me; but if they are not electric then there's all sorts of opportunity to surpass 70MPGe. There are hybrid SUVs coming to market in 2017 that have a twin-motor electric-differential rear axle that will do torque vectoring. The future is so bright we'll all need mirror-shades.

OTOH production of new (autonomous) vehicles will drop; but there's vast opportunity retrofitting the old self-driven fleet.

[mcrews]

Funny you bring up this topic.
I am currently driving my daughter's 2012 Toyota Prius III for the month. She has 0 mods. I am able to get 55-60 mpg with hardly ANY effort what so ever. Granted it IS a hybrid, but in 10 years there are going to be more improvements to meet the CAFE standards.
I have actually been thinking how I struggle to get 24-28mpg in my 2007 Kia Sportage and here is a 5 yr newer car that is effortless.
AND the Prius is actually pretty darn peppy! I can get off the light like its a turbo V6 or small V8. Also if I want to pass somebody on the freeway, I have no worries about 'running out of torque.
I think the 'low hanging fruit' of ecomodding is in the older vehicles.

[me and my metro]

I am putting together a 2002 Saturn L200, it really is an Opel Vectra B. It has the 2.2 Ecotec engine and a Getrag 5 speed trans. It should get in the low 30s just cruising back and forth to work. I paid $400 for this loaded 4 door sedan, it has a engine with a bad rod( it came loose). I have another short block and a couple heads. Probably will have under $1000 done and driving. Yes, I love old cars!

[Natalya]

@Electric and Prius:
Sure that stuff gets better MPG right off the bat(t) <-- (made a pun hahaha I'm a dork) but the hybrid batteries are going to become rubbish eventually and the replacement cost, while probably less than the cost of fuel saved, will probably be around half of what it would take to get one of these older cars and mod them for higher FE. And then 5-8 years later you need to replace the battery again.

Maybe a related question would regard the longevity of cars. Most vehicles from the 90's have been completely destroyed by rust up in Canada or the northern states, but it's still possible to find some old cars from Victoria, BC or from the southern states which are in good shape. Many cars from the 80's and 90's are still practical as daily drivers, provided they'd been maintained right and didn't see salt on their roads. But hybrids won't be practical after their battery life has been exceeded, until you fork over for a new battery. The Insight can be driven w/o its IMA system, but other cars aren't quite the same.

[oil pan 4]

New cars may not be economical to work on. They will be difficult to work on, I mean have you seen the new stuff out there now and how everything is crammed under the hood? All the computer and wiring may make it virtually impossible to trouble shoot and fix some things because you have to tear apart the interior.
To do certain minor stuff to the engine it will need to be pulled or pulled apart.
I don't even want to mess with the newer stuff.

[niky]

I could see myself picking up a Mirage or a Fit secondhand maybe a decade down the road.

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The biggest issue for modern ICE cars are things like underhood sensors and electric power steering. Most economy EPS units are crap, and they're not built to be serviced. Sensors, on the other hand, are easy to replace... as long as they still make your sensors.

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Just bought an 04 car with hardly any underhood electronics... just your basic EFI and dizzy set-up. Hoping to run it for another ten years before optioning up.

[freebeard]

The first car with electronic fuel injection was the VW Type III. The temperature sensors are now unobtainium. Modifying Type II sensors was a possibility. As was swapping to carbs, which is what I did with mine.

I saw a Type III Fastback (an AZ car) with the fuel injection intact at a swap meet yesterday. The new owner is the eldest son in a VW family and he's determined to learn to keep it running.

[JRMichler]

Originally Posted by freebeard

The first car with electronic fuel injection was the VW Type III. The temperature sensors are now unobtanium.

That same Bosch fuel injection system was used by Volvo in the early 70's. When a friends Volvo 164 insisted on running lean, I connected both temperature sensor wires to a dual potentiometer (two pots, one knob) on the dash. He loved it, he could dial the mixture rich enough to start instantly on the coldest day, then lean it out to get better mileage than he had ever seen.