OVERALL economy of vehicles

[nimblemotors]

I think we are here to discuss "mods", i.e. modifications to improve fuel economy. that being the case, we should be modifying to convert to natural gas, as its the most economical fuel right now, or all-electric as electric costs are quite low compared to gasoline.

Cars are a highly depreciating expense, and for most Americans brainwashed by billions and billions of advertising dollars, they waste an enourmous amount of money buying new cars.

I've never bought a new car in my life, and most of them are bought with something wrong and fixed and driven until I'm wanting another and then sold at profit.
But if you have no ability to repair yourself, still much economical to buy a 3-year-old car and sell it after 5 years to minimize cost and repairs.

[California98Civic]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

much economical to buy a 3-year-old car and sell it after 5 years to minimize cost and repairs.

Agreed. But I chose to keep mine past five years and past ten years because I love the idea of driving one car for forever, slowly rebuilding the thing, part-by-part, over time. Seems more ecological than discarding a ton of steel and plastics (even if portions of it will be reused). But it has started to cost more in maintenance these last few years. Struts, exhaust, radiator...

[Fr3AkAzOiD]

I have been running around $0.30 - $0.35 per mile.

Thats cost of car, gas, oil changes, maintance divided by 56k miles.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

I think we are here to discuss "mods", i.e. modifications to improve fuel economy. that being the case, we should be modifying to convert to natural gas, as its the most economical fuel right now...

Not really. First, there's the cost of installing the natural gas system, then there are the environmental costs of increasing natural gas extraction. After that, there are the "lost opportunity" costs of moving from one fossil fuel to another, vs getting off fossil entirely.

Then you need to consider that for at least some of us, it's not really about money at all.

[zonker]

OPINION:

buying a new car instead of recycling the existing automotive fleet currently occupying our earth is counterproductive to reducing the carbon footprint, no matter what the fuel economy is.

in many cases, repairing an older car is a greener option than purchasing a new one.

so with that in mind, when i hear someone say they bought their brand new (enter your favorite car here) because they are trying to reduce their carbon footprint and be more responsible, i think they are only fooling themselves, because that not yet used up car sitting for sale in the classifieds will serve them much better.

and what happens if more people repair their old cars instead of buy new ones?
large multi-national companies (read major polluters) will shrink in size, and smaller cottage industries will thrive, bringing our hard earned dollars back out from wall street and into our local economy.

[NHRABill]

Originally Posted by zonker

OPINION:

buying a new car instead of recycling the existing automotive fleet currently occupying our earth is counterproductive to reducing the carbon footprint, no matter what the fuel economy is.

in many cases, repairing an older car is a greener option than purchasing a new one.

so with that in mind, when i hear someone say they bought their brand new (enter your favorite car here) because they are trying to reduce their carbon footprint and be more responsible, i think they are only fooling themselves, because that not yet used up car sitting for sale in the classifieds will serve them much better.

and what happens if more people repair their old cars instead of buy new ones?
large multi-national companies (read major polluters) will shrink in size, and smaller cottage industries will thrive, bringing our hard earned dollars back out from wall street and into our local economy.

Waiting to hear the responses I got blasted in another thread for saying the same thing

The idea of buying a new car to save 5 or 10 mpg is nuts in the thinking you are doing better for the environment. Repairing an older car or upgrading a used car with a newer motor or Fuel injection setup for increased economy is by far better for the planet then purchasing a prius

Or at least that is the story I will tell my wife when I swap in a LS1 with a 6 speed in my truck "But dear I will go from 15mpg to almost 30mpg"

[zonker]

haha - good luck on the LS1 argument with the wife, Bill.

you mentioned prius... that car gives me a technological woody, but it also plants me with an economical STD in the form of government subsidized ownership costs.

Like most hybrids, it's low cost of ownership comes at the expense of the public taxpayer in the form of federal tax credits to it's owners and to toyota thru the sale of carbon credits to big oil.

That's not exactly being "green".

[slowmover]

besides, it's a Ford so I don't work on it very much.

Yeah, I'd early give up on them as well. Law of Diminishing Returns. Good planning to keep several available for contingent use.



As to ownership costs one must project a lifespan both in miles and time. For example, brand-new to 15-years at 15k miles annually. Only then can cpm be figured accurately. Depreciation hurts more than fuel, and depreciation plus other fixed expenses makes a mockery of fuel economy altogether.

While it is cheap to buy used and turn over at a fixed period it still doesn't work compared a careful analysis and spec'ng a vehicle that one has from new and keeps a verrrry long time. After about 15 to 18-years reliability declines precipitously (earlier on some vehicle brands/models [so acquire several, see above]) thus an accurate cpm also includes the cash purchase of the next vehicle built-in to the "present" cost.

The IRS allows about 50-cpm for business-related driving. If a vehicles cpm meets that -- short of replacement cost -- over 15-yrs/300k then one is ahead, IMO, as that US fleet average tends to be an accurate offsetting deduction.

It is not a car we need so much, but private personal transportation. As this is an ongoing lifetime need, past and future costs/expenses must be posted in any analysis. One car that we own cannot be separated from any other. Not the junker at age 17 nor the Lexus at age 62. This is almost a fixed lifetime expense.

Nor can our housing costs be separated from the car as the expense of a home needing a garage cannot be left out, nor -- for the apartment renter -- the even greater dependence on transportation than a homeowner. While this angle does not neatly fit into the auto cpm it is nevertheless the larger backdrop of ones personal economy. That garage is a large fixed expense.

Those who forego one just pay more for any individual car, as well as more cars over a lifetime. Machines need to be stored in weathertight structures for longest life. While off-street covered parking is good, nothing beats a fully enclosed garage for longest life. So just as a home office has it's separable share of mortgage,utilities, taxes, insurance, etc for tax & income purposes, so does a garage. On a lot large enough to accommodate one (itself another set of problems). And so on.

.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by slowmover

besides, it's a Ford so I don't work on it very much.

Way to change the "quote"!

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by zonker

haha - good luck on the LS1 argument with the wife, Bill.

you mentioned prius... that car gives me a technological woody, but it also plants me with an economical STD in the form of government subsidized ownership costs.

Like most hybrids, it's low cost of ownership comes at the expense of the public taxpayer in the form of federal tax credits to it's owners and to toyota thru the sale of carbon credits to big oil.

That's not exactly being "green".

Where in the U.S. is anyone selling carbon credits?

Edit- I'm generally at ~15-25 cents/mile depending on how much I end up paying for maintenance in a given year.