Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-08-2018, 08:24 PM   #3241 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 746
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by mora View Post
I'd like to push AC35 or AC50 beyond Curtis voltage range with this controller. Would it be possible to parallel IGBTs for 1000 phase amps? Even that 650A amps would do, like Curtis low voltage model is capable. 650A and some 200V to a single motor. Then double motors/controllers for real fun.
You can get 1800A 2100V IGBT's if you have the wallet. I have not seen 1800A IGBTs under 600V rated.

I would spend some of that cash on a high-throughput glycol-cooled heat sink so you don't melt anything.

AC35 or AC50 on each wheel would be fun. Finding and sourcing a gearbox that will drop the RPM available to match your desired top speed is likely where you will find difficulty. If you do find a single-speed gearbox that works for you, it may not fit into the space that is available.

I think that's why most conversions use the FWD manual transaxle, or a drive shaft to a standard rear differential ... but that's only a guess.

__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-09-2018, 03:34 PM   #3242 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: RO
Posts: 9
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
OMG ... look at what an AC35 in a Trabant has gone to

On my particular application, I have some questions for the experts. I have some IGBT's lying around which I want to use for the P&S AC board running the AC35 at 144V.

1. How much current can I actually push through them for ~10 seconds? Should I aim 75% of the 400A or 800A peak ratings?

2. How fast/slow are they for the EV application?

They are 600V 400A Powerex CM400DY12NF and have these ratings:

Collector Current*** (DC, TC' = 92°C) IC 400A
Peak Collector Current ICM 800A
Emitter Current** (TC = 25°C) IE 400A
Peak Emitter Current** IEM 800A

Inductive Turn-on Delay Time td(on) — — 300 ns
Load Rise Time tr VCC = 300V, IC = 400A, — — 200 ns
Switch Turn-off Delay Time td(off) VGE1 = VGE2 = 15V, RG = 3.1Ω, — — 450 ns
Time Fall Time tf Inductive Load — — 300 ns

Last edited by BogdanT; 10-09-2018 at 03:53 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2018, 05:19 PM   #3243 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 746
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogdanT View Post
On my particular application, I have some questions for the experts. I have some IGBT's lying around which I want to use for the P&S AC board running the AC35 at 144V.

1. How much current can I actually push through them for ~10 seconds? Should I aim 75% of the 400A or 800A peak ratings?

2. How fast/slow are they for the EV application?

They are 600V 400A Powerex CM400DY12NF and have these ratings:

Collector Current*** (DC, TC' = 92°C) IC 400A
Peak Collector Current ICM 800A
Emitter Current** (TC = 25°C) IE 400A
Peak Emitter Current** IEM 800A

Inductive Turn-on Delay Time td(on) — — 300 ns
Load Rise Time tr VCC = 300V, IC = 400A, — — 200 ns
Switch Turn-off Delay Time td(off) VGE1 = VGE2 = 15V, RG = 3.1Ω, — — 450 ns
Time Fall Time tf Inductive Load — — 300 ns
I certainly don't qualify as an expert.

For question 1

From experience, anything around double the voltage works. IE your 600V IGBTs could drive up to 300V peak to peak. 144V pack is fine.

As for the current, I'm not a heat flow guy. I understand that heat flows from high temp to low temp, and that there is resistance to the flow of heat like there is to the flow of electricity. As for the equations, and the integrals ... sorry! Not my area. I would start with 50% max (ie 400A) and do an acceleration test for 5 seconds, or whatever you can reliably and repeatably do. The difference in temperature is what you are looking for.

If the temp rises from say 20C to 70C then you are done. The temperature inside the IGBT is higher than what you can measure at the heat sink. How much higher depends on that math I talked about earlier.

The heat can't get out of the IGBT very fast compared to how fast you can generate it. But it's tough to put a load on an AC motor in the 100's of amps for very long without a dynamometer. I used a DC motor coupled to an AC motor, and ran the DC motor as the 'motor' and the AC motor as the regenerative brake. If the AC and DC controllers are connected to the same battery pack, you only 'discharge' the difference between motoring and braking ... which is what the IGBT's are putting out for heat. You can do some rough calculations with that and figure out how much heat you are dumping.

For the heating up of the IGBT ... I think this is what was posted the last time someone asked ... but of course I can't find that!
- you have a turn-on time, where the transistor is sort of like a resistor. It has to do with time constants, capacitance, and drive current.
- you have a turn-off time, where the transistor is sort of like a resistor It has to do with time constants, capacitance, and drive current.
- you have a pulse width time, where the transistor is a resistor .. RGon I think?

The turn on and turn off times are multiplied by your switching frequency, or carrier frequency.

The RGon is multiplied by the duty cycle of ON and the switching frequency

That whole mess is divided by 6, since you have 3 IGBTs switching high side and 3 IGBTs switching low side.

I think Paul's board has a max output of 90% duty cycle ... but I can't find any doc to support that number.

For question 2 - yes, they are a bit slow. A lower carrier frequency will help reduce your switching power loss. I think Paul uses a random number between 3KHz and 8KHz to make a white noise 'Shh' instead of a hum. We have industrial controllers running at 0.5 Khz and the motors work fine ... but they are a bit noisier.
__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to thingstodo For This Useful Post:
BogdanT (10-10-2018)
Old 10-10-2018, 11:10 AM   #3244 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 4,374
Thanks: 528
Thanked 1,194 Times in 1,054 Posts
I thought the spec stated you can run 400a @ rated V for a 92 degree temp rise.
First line collector current.

My swag rule of thumb, 15 seconds tops. My experience is voltage didn't seem to make much thermal difference, or I cant measure it using basic homebrew equipment.
__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 03:13 PM   #3245 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 746
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
I thought the spec stated you can run 400a @ rated V for a 92 degree temp rise.
First line collector current.
I think that is for the raw IGBT, and depends on how well the heat sink takes away the heat ... Maybe not?

Quote:
My swag rule of thumb, 15 seconds tops. My experience is voltage didn't seem to make much thermal difference, or I cant measure it using basic homebrew equipment.
The voltage does not appear to affect heat. But reflected waves and switching transients do appear to ... amplify? .. the voltage. If you keep your bus voltage to half or less, the IGBTs appear to survive
__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 03:52 PM   #3246 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: RO
Posts: 9
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
From my interwebs crash-course in IGBT I think Piotrsko is correct. More specifically the peak values are pulse values (measured in couple of ms). Of course there are a ton of variables that influence the time measure (temp, pulse duration, voltage).

Given that the plan is to run 150V, this will have an influence, but not to the extent that 600V 400A rated IGBTs can be usable in that range of current.

I am hoping to draw 500+ batt amps so looks like I need to source some higher rated ones. Maybe use these for a prototype.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 03:07 PM   #3247 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 4,374
Thanks: 528
Thanked 1,194 Times in 1,054 Posts
MHO: build and use it with what you have. Probably will exceed expectations. Otoh: better to fry existing silicon than go buy new expensive silicone to OOPS. Just ask thingstodo.
__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 04:37 PM   #3248 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 746
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
Otoh: better to fry existing silicon than go buy new expensive silicone to OOPS. Just ask thingstodo.
+1 on that. But I guess it would depend on how expensive the existing silicon is that you already own
__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 06:06 PM   #3249 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 4,374
Thanks: 528
Thanked 1,194 Times in 1,054 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogdanT View Post

On my particular application, I have some questions for the experts. I have some IGBT's lying around which I want to use for the P&S AC board running the AC35 at 144V.
They are 600V 400A Powerex CM400DY12NF and have
Sunk cost=paid for=free more or less. YMMV. WAAAY cheaper than 1800a currently on mouser
__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 06:56 PM   #3250 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 746
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogdanT View Post
More specifically the peak values are pulse values (measured in couple of ms).
The bus-voltage pulses get reflected to a lower or higher extent when they reach the change of impedance at the motor terminals .. I think that's an acceptable translation of the sort-of understandable videos that explain that stuff ...

I have seen 2.25x bus voltage at the output terminals of the IGBTs, before the turn on/turn off resistor values have been adjusted to minimize overshoot. And 2 ms is more than enough time to blow up your IGBTs

__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Paul & Sabrina's cheap DIY 144v motor controller MPaulHolmes Open ReVolt: open source DC motor controller 7381 08-02-2023 11:55 PM
Paul & Sabrina's Cheap EV Conversion MPaulHolmes Fossil Fuel Free 542 11-12-2016 10:09 PM
Contest! Name Paul & Sabrina's controller MetroMPG Forum News & Feedback 120 10-22-2011 02:59 PM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com