Picture of "our" Tesla Roadster? (Correction - not "ours" ... it's "his"!)

[Nevyn]

Aye. I want to bop people on the head when I hear them say "Oh, electric cars aren't zero pollution if they use electric from non-renewable sources!"

Seriously? THAT is your complaint about them?! Which is worse? Coal-based electricity being used to charge an electric car, or coal-based electricity powering a refinery to make gasoline that gets trucked (via gas or diesel) to a gas station that is using coal-based electricity to run the store/power the gas pumps?

Sometimes sheeple need smacked.

[hoffer41]

Originally Posted by Nevyn

Aye. I want to bop people on the head when I hear them say "Oh, electric cars aren't zero pollution if they use electric from non-renewable sources!"

Seriously? THAT is your complaint about them?! Which is worse? Coal-based electricity being used to charge an electric car, or coal-based electricity powering a refinery to make gasoline that gets trucked (via gas or diesel) to a gas station that is using coal-based electricity to run the store/power the gas pumps?

Sometimes sheeple need smacked.

What about the large energy costs involved in producing the componets for EV? How about the fact that rare earths take enormous amounts of energy to mine and refine? Did you know that rare earth metals are mined pretty much exclusively in China? China has no emissions standards. The various parts of EV are produced all over the world and need to be shipped to one location where they are assembled, giving them a much higher energy cost to produce than a conventional vehicle.

No one knows what to do with the used batteries in an EV. They are toxic and cannot be recycled. The replacements cost so much that by the time you wear the battery out you've only broke even with the gasoline costs of a comparable vehicle.

how about the supply of rare earths. is that supply even large enough to convert a noticable percentage of the vehicles on the road to EV? No one even knows. If there is enough, what will adding car production to the list of uses for rare earths do to the price? keeping in mind most of the things that use rare earths today are small electronic devices using an ounce or so versus a car using several hundred pounds.

our energy grids today are old and running pretty much at capacity, especially in very hot and cold weather, when demand increases. What would everyone plugging in their car at 6 when they come home do to the grid? No one knows for sure about that either.

what about energy loss through transmission? some of the energy from the coal plant is lost stepping up for transmission through the power lines, some is lost travelling through the power lines, some is lost stepping down at the station, some is lost at the power pole transformer, some is lost converting to the charging voltage, and some is lost in the charging process itself. How much?

issues with vehicle range and response to extreme temperature go without saying.


I don't want to start a fight nevyn, and I hope you take this constructively, but these ARE good concerns about EV. And by ignoring these issues you introduce some irony into your calling people who are not on the EV bandwagon "sheep"

[Daox]

The rare earth metals is an issue. Unfortuantely there isn't much we can do about it. China has em and we need them to make EVs. There are companies looking to make motors without rare earth metal parts, but I'm not sure they're really catching on or are cost effective.

The battery packs aren't really toxic for most EVs since they're now using lithium. Hybrid nickle metal hydride still are toxic of course. But, all batteries are pretty easy to recycle and are worth a fair amount in scrap because of their precious materials.

The grid thing also really isn't an issue in most areas. Many thought it would be but companies have been doing studies and its been found that we can get a ton of EVs on the road without any issues. It'll take years to get that many EVs on the road before this becomes a problem.

As for pollution of a car vs a coal plant powering an EV its been found that in almost all cases the EV still puts out less emissions even if the electricity comes completely from a coal plant.

[tes]

Originally Posted by Daox

The rare earth metals is an issue. Unfortuantely there isn't much we can do about it.

Actually, rare earths are not an issue because they are not needed.

The Tesla Roadster does not have any rare earths in the motor or battery pack. It uses an three phase, four pole AC induction motor (invented by Nikola Tesla). The fields from the stationary windings induce currents in the moving windings, which generates their field. So there are no permanent magnets in the assembly whatsoever.

As an added bonus, induction motors can run much hotter without any risk of demagnetization. Rare earth magnets tend to have a relatively low Curie temperature, and if you exceed it they demagnetize and the motor is toast.

[tes]

I see you've swalloed the FUD that some "analysts" are spreading about EVs.

1. You don't need rare earths to make an electric car. See my previous post.

2. Internal combustion engines have way more parts - often 1000 moving parts, and many are made of special alloys, etc. The material and energy inputs required to build the mechanically much simpler EVs will be lower, not higher.

3. The lithium in the batteries can and will be fully recycled, like lead in conventional car batteries is now. It's non-toxic (unlike lead or NiMH). Geologically there is a huge supply available, which has barely been tapped now simply because there wasn't the demand.

4. Yes the batteries cost a lot, but the costs are dropping 8% a year. By the time I need to replace my car's battery in 7-10 years it won't be that big a deal.

5. Most EV charging is done overnight, when there is gobs of spare capacity. In fact, base capacity is a problem; you can't throttle nuclear reactors and the wind power comes when it comes. Ontario has to pay other utilities to take excess power on some days. Charging EVs at night will actually help. The time-of-day rates will encourage night time charging. My Tesla is programmed to automatically start charging at 2am every night.

6. Distribution efficiency? Are you kidding? Compared to gasoline that has to be trucked to the distribution points? Total energy efficiency for the Tesla including charging is about 80%. Compare that with ~20% for the typical gas car.

7. Temperature isn't a big deal if the car is designed well. The Tesla battery is liquid cooled and heated. My Tesla works just fine at -26C, even with the battery cold soaked (yes I have done it). In fact it starts up rather more easily than a gas car! For the first 15 minutes or so the battery is less efficient, but once it gets above freezing performance is completely normal. The Tesla "loses" about 10 km range during the warm-up period, which is negligible compared to the 384 km range of the car. Also the cabin heater takes a tiny percentage of the energy required to move the car, its effect on range is insignificant. The car also works very well in hot temperatures; if the battery pack gets too hot it uses the air conditioner to cool it. So the car handles temperature extremes very well, thank you very much!

I don't blame you for not understanding the issues; there are people out there spreading all kinds of misinformation, and people aren't familiar enough with EVs to understand what is truth and what is crap.

Originally Posted by hoffer41

What about the large energy costs involved in producing the componets for EV? How about the fact that rare earths take enormous amounts of energy to mine and refine? Did you know that rare earth metals are mined pretty much exclusively in China? China has no emissions standards. The various parts of EV are produced all over the world and need to be shipped to one location where they are assembled, giving them a much higher energy cost to produce than a conventional vehicle.

No one knows what to do with the used batteries in an EV. They are toxic and cannot be recycled. The replacements cost so much that by the time you wear the battery out you've only broke even with the gasoline costs of a comparable vehicle.

how about the supply of rare earths. is that supply even large enough to convert a noticable percentage of the vehicles on the road to EV? No one even knows. If there is enough, what will adding car production to the list of uses for rare earths do to the price? keeping in mind most of the things that use rare earths today are small electronic devices using an ounce or so versus a car using several hundred pounds.

our energy grids today are old and running pretty much at capacity, especially in very hot and cold weather, when demand increases. What would everyone plugging in their car at 6 when they come home do to the grid? No one knows for sure about that either.

what about energy loss through transmission? some of the energy from the coal plant is lost stepping up for transmission through the power lines, some is lost travelling through the power lines, some is lost stepping down at the station, some is lost at the power pole transformer, some is lost converting to the charging voltage, and some is lost in the charging process itself. How much?

issues with vehicle range and response to extreme temperature go without saying.


I don't want to start a fight nevyn, and I hope you take this constructively, but these ARE good concerns about EV. And by ignoring these issues you introduce some irony into your calling people who are not on the EV bandwagon "sheep"

[AthenA]

Tesla Motors is trying to deflect claims made by a blogger that its Tesla Roadster, if simply left alone, will grow to be a "brick." In electronics, "bricking" means to make a device no longer functional.

[tes]

There was a lengthy discussion on the topic on the Tesla Motors Club. I won't try to summarize, see:

Do you know that you must keep your battery charged?

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by tes

No, that is not the government's Roadster. They don't have a hardtop.

That is correct!

Originally Posted by euromodder

Playing with taxpayers' money is always fun !

It certainly was...

Originally Posted by War_Wagon

Well MetroMPG, it would seem to me that if the federal government has one for evalution purposes, it would therefore be a government asset. And as such, at some point it must be disposed of, and federal government vehicle assests get sold via auctions that are open to the general population.

Very true. How do I know all this?

Originally Posted by tes

I met one of the engineers working with the government's Tesla recently. He says only four engineers are authorized to drive the car.

When I worked there in 2010 I was one of the "evil" four Gov't employees allowed to drive it. At the time it was actually three Engineers and the Fleet Manager... I was the FM. That car was/is on special restriction and requires the Department Head's approval to sign it out, for very obvious reasons.

Here's a nice shot from the test track in Blainville, QC. I'm the funny looking feller behind the wheel:

http://images.lpcdn.ca/569x379/201009/24/202456.jpg

Here's the link to the article, for those who can read French:

Les autos de demain mises à l'épreuve (VIDÉO) | Sébastien Templier | Auto écolo

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

My brother says he observed the driver & passenger "evaluating" the car's ridiculous acceleration capabilities several times.

I can tell you that anyone driving a Tesla Roadster for the first time will literally be blown away by the telepathic accelerator response, buttery smoothness of the drivetrain, and the eerily quiet ferocity of the acceleration.

It has one gear... FAST. There's no waiting, no shifting, no hesitation, no tall torque-dividing overdrive ratios, just HUGE EFFORTLESS TORQUE any time you flex your right foot. It really is an amazing experience to drive one, and I'm sure tes would back me up on that.

The Model S will offer most of the visceral thrill of the roadster in a large luxury sedan. I hope to be lucky enough to drive one someday.

I just thought I'd dig up an old thread and expose one of those lucky Gov't b@$tards that, at one time anyway, got to drive that little red electric rocket for the sake of science and the betterment of our great nation.

[tes]

Thanks Blue. FYI, we now have a Model S (p85) as well. It really is a rocket - very impressive!

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by tes

Thanks Blue. FYI, we now have a Model S (p85) as well. It really is a rocket - very impressive!

CONGRATULATIONS!

Would it happen to be you I saw on Hwy 17 just East of Rockland on Sunday? I posted a thread about it earlier today:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post362326