Poll on automated traffic enforcement

[tumnasgt]

I agree with speed cameras, especially near schools and road work zones (the Police in NZ don't do speed traps in work zones, which I think is stupid).

I am actually more comfortable with cameras than officers, as if the rule is going to be enforced, it should also apply to those driving during rush hour or in the middle of the night.


Red light cameras I'm not so keen on the idea of, as there are several intersections around here where the orange light isn't long enough to let you cross the intersection at the speed limit, let alone plus the distance for 'safe stopping'. Wellington doesn't have them though, so I'm not too bothered, for now.

I heard that some European countries have tailgating cameras, and I would love to have them installed, with massive fines. It'd probably also catch a lot of people on cellphones, as tailgaters usually seem to be doing other things while they are driving (best I've seen yet is coffee + make up + reading the paper, fortunately it wasn't my bumper they were riding).

SVOboy: In NZ we have no demerit points for camera fines, and the car owner is liable for the ticket, though they are welcome to get someone else (eg the driver) to pay it. People still complain about the tickets, but at least your license is still clean. On the other hand, they do demerit points for cameras in Australia, and as I understand it, the photos are almost always clear enough to see the driver.

[apologies for the massive (and probably incoherent) post, I'm really too tired to be forum-ing]

[euromodder]

Automated enforcement is a mere cash-cow and has little or nothing to do with traffic safety. They generate very high numbers of offences, but hardly generate safety.
The moment revenue goes down, so will the allowed speed.

Based on the numbers I have for local and regional situations, mobile manned speed traps are about 100x times more efficient than fixed-position, automated speed traps.
Anyone wanting increased road safety through enforcement, should push for mobile checks, not fixed camera's.

In the northern part of Belgium, we have about 1400 speed camera's and combined speed/red light camera's - that's one for every 4000 inhabitants.
Portugal has ridiculously few camera's in comparison, but road fatalities there are dropping faster than they do here !
Germany has fewer camera's, but performs far better.

Speed is not the big issue it's claimed to be in road safety.
The EU countries that do better than Belgium, usually happen to effectively allow higher speeds.
Germany does far better, despite the often unrestricted Autobahn and 100 km/h limit on extra-urban roads.
The UK does far better, despite the 96 km/h limit on the often challenging British extra-urban roads. And despite the 0.08 % BAC (most of the EU is down to 0.05 or 0.02 , some down to 0)

[Arragonis]

The trap in the report is automated, its just moveable and 'aimed' by a real person.

[fidalgoman]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

I personally have never understood the (justification of the) philosophy whereby people won't complain about the speed limits being ridiculous but will go to extreme lengths to whine about the enforcement of it.

"Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." -Demonax, Roman cynic philosopher.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt." - Ayn Rand

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

Blind machines know no mercy, and Law without mercy is tyranny.

I remember having this discussion several times in my life where the one driving the car pontificated on the justness of the law. They were never amused when I pointed out the number of times they had exceeded the speed limit and made illegal lane changes, blinker usage, following distance, etc. They were in fact, indignant.

I watched the news a couple days ago where lawmakers were considering black-boxes to be placed in all new cars in order for the Police to monitor vehicular data. This system is already installed in many rental cars. If you exceed the speed limit they will add a surcharge to your bill. So I guess it boils down not so much what is safe or unsafe as it is how much a person wants to place themselves under a merciless system of law enforcement, the very laws than most people oppose if not by speech at least by tacit deed.

By the way, I do try to keep traffic laws. By experience I mostly find myself in the minority.

[SVOboy]

Well, I think it all boils down to an American culture of "I'll do what I want, everyone else be damned." For some reason Americans have an image that the road is the "open road" from old movies where people can do whatever they want relatively consequence free. Certainly no one is perfect, but enforcement doesn't have to mean ticketing someone going 1km over, and I don't think it would, since there certainly have to be built in variances for speedometer differences, random changes, etc etc. I know here in japan I can go through the automated ticketing machines on the highway at 20km over the speed limit and never get a ticket, because they're only there to remind people to slow down and to punish heinously dangerous speeders.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable and good system to me.

You should also keep in mind that Americans have a relative high degree of freedom with what they can do with their cars. Here all cars that can go any amount of fast come with built in governors from the factory to prevent the owners from ever using that speed.

Anyway, while I agree that there is certainly a wrong way to approach the situation, the typical American approach of fear-mongering seems pretty silly. I mean, you get the conservatives complaining about government tyranny over traffic cameras on the one hand and then trumpeting the patriot act as a necessary measure for "safety" on the other.

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by fidalgoman

"Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." -Demonax, Roman cynic philosopher.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt." - Ayn Rand

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

Blind machines know no mercy, and Law without mercy is tyranny.

I remember having this discussion several times in my life where the one driving the car pontificated on the justness of the law. They were never amused when I pointed out the number of times they had exceeded the speed limit and made illegal lane changes, blinker usage, following distance, etc. They were in fact, indignant.

I watched the news a couple days ago where lawmakers were considering black-boxes to be placed in all new cars in order for the Police to monitor vehicular data. This system is already installed in many rental cars. If you exceed the speed limit they will add a surcharge to your bill. So I guess it boils down not so much what is safe or unsafe as it is how much a person wants to place themselves under a merciless system of law enforcement, the very laws than most people oppose if not by speech at least by tacit deed.

By the way, I do try to keep traffic laws. By experience I mostly find myself in the minority.

So do I.

I much appreciated the quotes you posted. I think we both recognize authoritarianism when it rears its ugly head (be it Left wing or Right wing,) and are willing to point it out.

BTW, a fundamental problem with camera and sensor evidence is that you can't cross-examine a camera or a machine in a court of law. That is an inherent denial of the due process rights of the accused.

[roosterk0031]

The local speed cameras in Cedar Rapids Iowa don't ticket till 12 mph over in a 55 zone. 12 over is excessive IMO. Red light camera's nail every runner and get 90% of them for speed at the same time, anything over 6 mph while running a red should get a 2nd ticket. Tickets go against registered owner, nothing points or anything towards license.

I think the the cameras should notifiy you with a addition set of light 50-100 yards down the road that you just got busted. Digital display of your speed, red numbers of your speed your getting mail. Nothing fixes bad behavior that quick feed back, can't discipline my wifes dog for pooping on the floor 2 weeks ago.

And as law abiding driving and tax payer, the are more efficient and safer than making an officer work a freeway, or set at every stoplight. I really dislike that private companies are getting 1/3 or more of the fee, no reason the local LEO's can do the whole thing.

[Piwoslaw]

Originally Posted by roosterk0031

I think the the cameras should notifiy you with a addition set of light 50-100 yards down the road that you just got busted. Digital display of your speed, red numbers of your speed your getting mail. Nothing fixes bad behavior that quick feed back, can't discipline my wifes dog for pooping on the floor 2 weeks ago.

With all due respect to both sides, people are different from dogs - people have a deeper understanding of both time and responsibility. Though, on the other hand, I personally know people who honestly believe that if they didn't get caught red handed, then they didn't do anything bad. Accusing them post factum is beyond their scope of responsibility.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

Certainly no one is perfect, but enforcement doesn't have to mean ticketing someone going 1km over, and I don't think it would

That's is however what it's quickly becoming.

Most EU countries allow a few kph margin, but you can expect the margins to be reduced in future as equipement gets better and more importantly, when the technical and legal requirements get rewritten to increase the accuracy of the equipment.

[dcb]

and the stoplight cameras in america do not have any concept of not stopping, I don't know what the lower limit is, but people come to a complete stop for a few seconds to avoid tickets. There is no "12kph threshold" here, land of zero tolerance, more and more being run by machines. yay.