Prius VS. TDI (which to buy)

[bwilson4web]

By all means, head over to your local VW dealer and buy a Jetta TDI . . . today!

In contrast, I used the last generation Prius, an early 2010, for a driving stunt:

FYI, that was ~10.9 out of 12.1 gallons. I didn't fill it right.

Bob Wilson

[PaulB2]

7-year-old thread...

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by PaulB2

7-year-old thread...

...and pre-VW diesel EPA-test fudging.

[bwilson4web]

Sorry about touching the old thread. It was a slow day and VW is not handling their problem well:

• VW CEO 'we did not cheat, we did not understand' to NPR - it defies understanding unless they thought the emissions tests were just a hoop to jump through and had no effect on operation.
• European cities ban cars - bad air days, some cities have had to ban cars except for electrics. China has a different source of bad air but are doing the same thing, banning cars and bad-air days. Seriously, VW was poisoning their own people.
• Resisting "Lemon Law" recall - a Florida owner got his money back using their Lemon Law over a vigorous defense by VW. The right answer is for VW to offer a new, replacement swap, one-for-one, and then fix the broken cars on their time and dime. New car for old, an even money+inflation trade.
• Even SRC equipped cars used 'cheat-diesel' software - since 2013 VW has been selling SRC equipped cars yet still used the 'cheat-diesel' code.

A bit long, for a detailed read of VW-gate:
http://www.computer.org/cms/Computer...ruary-2016.pdf

Think about how many diesel owners, diesel advocates, and press have been totally suckered in by the 'cheat-diesels.' Locally, 40 members voted for cheat-diesels when they were called "clean diesels." But I also remember the Portland-to-Portland, 8000 mile stunt (in the end, the premium price for diesel made the cost/mile, Gen-2 Prius the winner.)

In the USA, at least 500,000 cheat-diesel sales could have gone to legal diesels, hybrids, and even gassers. VW called them "clean diesels" when they were really "cheat-diesels."

The quickest and best solution is a one-for-one swap of new VW, equivalent cars or a cash+inflation+25% payment for these cheat-diesels. Once VW has them, I don't care if they fix'em, salvage, or ship'em.

Bob Wilson

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

The quickest and best solution is a one-for-one swap of new VW, equivalent cars or a cash+inflation+25% payment for these cheat-diesels. Once VW has them, I don't care if they fix'em, salvage, or ship'em.

Bob Wilson

This is not a reasonable solution because the supposed harm was spread to everyone in a community that had one of the cheat-diesels; they were misrepresented to everyone, and not just those that purchased the vehicles.

The premise is that the environment was made worse than anticipated, which had negative impacts on the health of those in the community. Although it's impossible to quantify the additional harm done to people, some attempt could be made to estimate either the monetary value of the additional health problems, or quantify the additional amount of pollutants that were generated beyond what was represented. The money could then be spent to improve health outcomes for people, or spent on cleaner transportation such as funding public transit, or promoting EVs or other low polluting technologies. Perhaps offset the electricity generation of a coal plant by wind or solar.

The most direct victim in all this though is all of the other auto manufacturers that were playing by the rules. VW had a monopoly in the passenger diesel market for years, apparently because they were not playing by the rules. VW had an unfair market advantage that caused a loss of profit to everyone else.

My point is that nothing will make things right, and there are no solutions. If it were up to me, I would have VW make installment payments that improve health outcomes for people throughout the world, and not "fix" the cars they sold. Send those responsible for the SMOG defeat to prison.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

. . .

My point is that nothing will make things right, and there are no solutions. If it were up to me, I would have VW make installment payments that improve health outcomes for people throughout the world, and not "fix" the cars they sold. Send those responsible for the SMOG defeat to prison.

Like the Mikado, I'm suggesting the remedy needs to be fit the crime:

1. Stop 'em - as quickly as possible, get them off the road. The offense is in the tail pipe. Get them off the roads so they won't continue spewing NOx, the first offense.
2. Cure those who paid for 'em - those who paid good money were the first and most directly harmed. So make them whole by swapping new cars for old. If the owners are too pissed at VW, pay them their purchase price plus inflation plus 25% for their time and trouble.
3. Everyone else - needs to be done in class-actions based upon where they fall. But when I spoke with Edmunds and Steenman, they have no plans to update their earlier articles. So did they suffer a harm so bad that they won't even lift a finger to correct their earlier articles and postings? In contrast, those who had given VW awards asked for them back and got them.

There are legal diesels so if someone wants one, they are available. But VW needs to 'stand down' until they can demonstrate they can and are only offering legal-diesels. That probably won't happen until VW releases their control software to the EPA/CARB along with hard data, backed up by Argonne testing.

VW is free to pursue their hybrid and electric vehicle development and future sales. A good faith effort would be to offer these to the current cheat-diesel owners. Crank up production and get them out there to replace the cheat-diesels.

Bob Wilson

[redpoint5]

The part I disagree with most is your reparation to those that purchased the vehicle. Most people didn't buy them knowing what the legal particle limits were, or where the VW supposedly rated on that scale. What they were most interested in was MPG, and they got it. They had the economic benefits of utilizing the vehicle, with the downside of increased health risk, which is non-quantifiable. That increased risk was also shared with others in the community.

TDI owners suffer due to increased health problems (as does anyone breathing the same affected air), and increased depreciation when it comes time to sell the vehicle.

At most, owners are entitled to compensation for the harm done to their health, and for the depreciation that is due to misrepresentation of the vehicles emissions. There was no loss of enjoyment of the vehicle when people utilized them in their ignorance of the misrepresented pollutants.

Giving out 2 cars for the price of every 1 purchased will surely bankrupt the company, ensuring no reparations are made.

Jail time is a good way to disincentivize the misbehavior, especially since the majority of VW employees had no knowledge of the cheating.

Hold those that were responsible accountable, and compensate those with losses as fairly as possible.

If you believe that the relatively minor lie about the emission rating of the vehicle is grounds for a brand new vehicle, then every single person who purchases a car from the stealership is due a new replacement based on the more significant lies that salesmen tell at every purchase.

[gone-ot]

One wonders when GM's "Clean Diesel" Cruze comes under *extra* scrutiny?

At the "crossroads" of BUSINESS & LITIGATION, you PAY when you LOSE.

[Hersbird]

I think the crime of the destruction of the environment is a bit of a stretch. You think that little TDI over there with some extra NOX is going to hurt you but something 10 times as big, 10 times as common, running 10 times the mileage namly, semi trucks, you are immune from somehow? Or that a single bolt of lightning makes as much as a TDI does in a year and there are over a billion of those. The crime here was scamming the government more then anything else. They cannot let stand when technology makes their rules obsolete and makes them look the fool. The only harm to owners was better fuel economy and then after the hype of being evil, lower resale. Me I kind of want a TDI more now.

[Vman455]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

One wonders when GM's "Clean Diesel" Cruze comes under *extra* scrutiny?

At the "crossroads" of BUSINESS & LITIGATION, you PAY when you LOSE.

I doubt that will happen; Chevrolet, like BMW, uses a urea additive to reduce NOx emissions. VW's claim, which turned out to be spurious, was that their cars were achieving the same NOx emissions without urea.