The problem with series hybrids

[user removed]

Sources for your cost calculations roflwaffle?

EPA figures were substantially lower than yours.

regards
Mech

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

Not fair. Turning a Camry into a Prius involves an aerodynamic rebody, just like the 75mpg (at steady state cruise) VW Bug hydraulic hybrid. The only apples-to-apples comparos on the market are Camry vs Camry Hybrid, and Civic vs Civic Hybrid. These hybrids have a 31% and 45% improvement in EPA Combined over their conventional counterparts.

If we look at the exact same model, it still only increases the payback time to ~5 years instead of ~3 years. I'm comparing a hybrid to a conventional sedan, and then a hybrid to a hydraulic version of the same thing because those are/would be the best of what's available. Toyota doesn't make a non-hybrid Prius because it's a lot harder to take advantage of the aero and whatnot w/o a hybrid system.

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

What kind of fuel economy would that aero-Bug have delivered if they had used the same Tecumseh engine powering the rear wheels through just a tranny, instead of through two hydraulic motors and a hydraulic accumulator as they did?

If they had geared it properly, it would get slightly better highway mileage, and worse city.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Sources for your cost calculations roflwaffle?

EPA figures were substantially lower than yours.

regards
Mech

The EPA estimates were a $7000 premium ($4000 over an electric hybrid) in high volume. We may see this a decade from now given the right set of circumstances, if the tech is viable, but currently, HH conversions runs around $13000, plus installation costs (Where the business makes their money). Hell, it's been over ten years since Toyota first commercialized an electric hybrid, and they still haven't reached a bottom in terms of a price premium even though they're getting pretty close at around $3000+ right now. Offhand, the high volumes needed for a $7000 premium, assuming HH tech is viable in that respect, are at least fifteen years away from the first production HH, just like they have been for hybrids. Arguably a manufacturer could hit ~$9000 ($6000 over an electric hybrid) in maybe seven to ten years, but we aren't even at the beginning of that w/ mass produced commercial HHs available.

[user removed]

I think the EPA designs (at least the ones that I looked at) were for a full sized SUV.

Not even close to what I am talking about, a 2000 pound 5 passenger vehicle.

In wheel drives that are individually self adjustable eliminate the swash plate hydraulic motors siamesed to the otherwise conventional differential in the EPA design. Reciprocating swash plate motors are notoriously inefficient at higher speeds, since they would be revolving at the same speed as a conventional prop shaft.

Accumulator costs are also greatly overestimated because they want to use composite construction which is totally unnecessary in a small vehicle that only needs around 6 gallons of high pressure fluid reserve.

Also their calculations are flawed in that their design does not use in wheel drives, so many unnecessary components are retained, and efficiency is reduced. They readily admit that the key component is a "new sheet of paper" design that is specifically used for HH applications.

In fact the close to 25% reduction in per vehicle components, elimination of close to 800parts in a conventional vehicle would result in a car that cost LESS than any conventional vehicle and considerably LESS than any electric hybrid.

Also eliminates the potentially costly battery, which even in a Prius of Insight 1 is a costly replacement. Also consider the planetary gear set in the Prius 'transmission" at $8000 replacement cost. In fact you could spend $15k replacing 5 individual part assemblies in a Prius (that are not serviceable with smaller individual parts).

It has already reached a point where the 10 year old hybrid used market sees a lower resale value, especially when mileages exceed 150k, and the complexity of electric hybrids becomes an issue.

In the future HH series design, the power train components will be virtually maintenance free. Most of the normal power train repairs will be a thing of the past, which is good, because the future repair scenario will be much more focused on the non power train components, in particular the accessories and electrical driven luxuries that are considered essential today by most buyers.

Comparing the EPA saimesed swash plate design to a good in wheel drive as linked in my first post of this thread is like comparing my a Model T to my civic VX.

regards
Mech

[user removed]

I would like to see a link where the EPA compared HH to electric in cost calculations. Maybe a copy and paste of the relevant info?

What I saw was a comparison to conventional vehicles. They did do a regenerative efficiency comparison, where the HH configuration beat the electric one by almost 300%.

regards
Mech

[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

Source?

It was in my earlier post:

The 640 bhp MINI QED plug-in EV

[winkosmosis]

Originally Posted by dcb

Dude, that electricity does not get to your wall % 100 efficiency, which is why it needs to leave the discussion, as we will not agree on a fair conversion factor.

so those mpge numbers are pretty much bogus as are the wishful thinking of efficiency. I don't care about wall power for this discussion, again it isn't relevant. You HAVE to compare apples to apples, i.e. petrol use to petrol use, without getting out and pushing in one case. The point is to make best use of the petrol to minimize its consumption, not hide behind manufactured complications.

and a 640hp anything is a pinky wave.

You're missing the point. Most driving in America is commuting, most of which can be done on wall power ALONE.

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by winkosmosis

You're missing the point. Most driving in America is commuting, most of which can be done on wall power ALONE.

No actually I'd say you are missing the point...

Since you could do all the commuting with a pure EV... Why put very expensive and highly inefficient hybrid parts in a car and then call it "more" environmental than the next car when in fact that can be highly questioned...

The argument here is also a bit silly... No, none of the many energy conversions in the chain in the hybrid is 100% efficient... Most are well below 50% efficient, so in comparasion to a ICE using top notch technology it's highly inefficient...

Old Mech... You seem to be agruing that a ICE coupled with a hydraulic transmission system (what you call a hydraulic Hybrid, with "motors" in the wheels) is more efficient than an EV?

Again... That is stupid... You are comparing apples and oranges... Of course a hydraulic transmission beats a mechanical, every day...
But calling that a Hydraulic Hybrid is just stupid... There are no hydralic motors there as far as I can figure... The hydraulic transfer the energy from the engine to the wheel, same as the mechanical parts do on any other car...

Now the hydraulic system is very efficient, but also expensive... If you couple it with a good ICE, you get a highly efficient ICE car... Not a hybrid... If you instead drop in an electric motor, you get an insanely efficient EV, since the electric engine is much more efficient than any ICE engine... Now bear in mind my wording... I'm talking energy in in one end, to the shaft out of the engine, not well-to wheel... well-to-engine out if you will...

Then stick on the hydraulics and the well-to-wheel number gets really good...

[user removed]

Ah "stupid" the name calling that disguises the ignorance of the person making the post.

I did not call it a Hydraulic Hybrid, it was many different organizations that apparently your lack of knowledge, reading, or understanding, of the system was your justification in hiding your ignorance with mud slinging and name calling.

But, for the sake of not letting this thread degrade into real stupidity. Lets look at your position.

A series hybrid is one that uses a single method of propulsion, which is the wheel motor in a HH. Now you could bypass the accumulator and drive the vehicle directly with hydraulic motors and not use any accumulator. The two sources of energy to drive the wheels make it a hybrid. Without the accumulator it is not a hybrid.

Maybe that was the pint your were trying to make, but you should drop the stupid comment because it makes you seem ignorant.

The term hybrid by definition is two sources of energy. You could argue that the engine is the only source of energy so it is not a hybrid, however when you take that position you would also have to eliminate the Insight and Prius in your descriptions of what is a "Hybrid", since both derive all of their energy from the liquid fuel you pour in the tank (in their original configurations).

At least in their stock configuration they have no provision for outside replenishment of anything but liquid fuel.

If you want to take the position that there are no hybrids (by your ignorance driven definition) then it doesn't matter to me, but you should consider the fact that calling someone stupid because of your own pitiful knowledge of the design just makes your position seem driven by stupidity since typically ignorance is curable.

Infinitely variable transmissions allow you to adjust the load on the engine by reducing its RPM to the balance point. If the load from driving the vehicle is insufficient then you store the energy in the accumulator. Once that level of storage is at maximum, kill the engine and drive the vehicle with accumulator pressure alone. That's self contained pulse and glide without speed variations.

Can your electric hybrid do that at 60 MPH? Maybe it they put a $10,000 battery in it, but even then it will not get good mileage because of the total losses through too many energy transformations, even when they are individually efficient, as well as the weight of the battery you must carry along.

That's pulse and glide, and you can do that with a hydraulic accumulator, BECAUSE of the total efficiency of the system. You can not do that with electric hybrids, unless you want to keep your speeds in the range of a fast bicycle.

If you want to brag about mileage and how good a hypermiler you are, just remember to also include the average speed of the trips you take. Any decent driver with 5 minutes of training can get 80 MPG in a 90 Civic if they average 22 MPH.

My average speeds are easily twice that amount, and in a lot of cases closer to 3 times that amount. My average mileage is between 55 and 60, with a lot of 300 mile one day trips that no BEV will do for at least another couple of decades without some major battery breakthrough that we have been waiting for, for 100 years.

If you want a $30,000 car that has a 100 mile range buy a Leaf, in a year or so, and use no oil whatsoever, if you can afford a part time car for $30k.

If you think when those BEVs get into the mainstream it is really going to cost you 2 cents a mile you are dreaming. Oh yes BEVs are not hybrids and it will be soon that you will be paying some form of road tax on your BEV, believe it.

Anyone here driven a BEV 20,000 miles? 50,000 miles? how about 100,000?

I think if you look at it rationally there is definitely a place for BEVs, I support their development.

I also understand their limitations. In a job hungry market a wage earner can not afford to limit their commute. They can also not afford to sell their house at a loss and move closer to a job that might not exist in a couple of years.

I would think from some of the responses that some followers of this thread have not read the linked articles in my first post.

They key component in a successful HH is the in wheel drive. Another key component is the overall simplicity of the system and its ability to capture and reapply huge amounts of energy with a virtually unlimited life expectancy, while being capable of reapplying those same amounts of energy at efficiencies exceeding 80% (again impossible with batteries and electric motors).

How much storage do your really need?

The Volt gives you 40 miles with a 400 pound fuel storage capability. The Leaf gives you 100 miles. Battery storage is still the achilles heel of the electric car, the same way it was the achilles heel 100 years ago.

Give me 300 miles for 200 pounds of battery storage with a 10 year life expectancy (required in California) and I will own only a BEV, especially if curbside charging is available (say in 15 minutes). It would be the only car I need, instead of two cars, one for short distance and the other for trips.

No one knows how long it will be before that is available, but at 59 I may not see it in my lifetime.

The first generation of HH will be a launch assist axle with a small accumulator, in the rear axle of a small FWD car. It will get better city mileage than highway mileage, whicle retaining the conventional power train.

The next step will be to use the same launch assist axle to pulse and glide the vehicle (engine on-engine off)at most speeds up to about 60 MPH, while still retaining the conventional powertrain.

This can be done with a cost to benefit ratio that pays for itself in months, not years.

As the technology matures the dedicated (no conventional powertrain) can be the next eveolution of the system. When you rationally consider the components eliminated the cost is actually less than conventional and the benefits immediate with no break even point to even consider.

Read the links, thats not my data.

regards
Mech

[user removed]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

IMO all that's needed is a parallel hybrid w/ an appropriately integrated transmission to beat a series hybrid. The biggest issue IMO, also why everyone is jumping on the EV bandwagon, is that Toyota has built a huge portfolio of hybrid patents, and anyone who wants to use something remotely close to their parallel system has to license through them, and if they don't then they tend to have a subpar system in terms of vehicle efficiency, eg the smaller Honda Insight/Civic hybrids get worse mileage than the larger Prius.

Toyota is paying royalties on the transmission in the Prius that they stole from a comapny in Florida that patented the system before Toyota ever used the same design.

regards
mech