Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Motorcycles / Scooters
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-22-2014, 03:17 PM   #351 (permalink)
Stick your neck out...
 
visionary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 135
Thanks: 15
Thanked 67 Times in 37 Posts
Reply to Godscountry

Throughout this project I have tried to use Allerts bike, not only as inspiration, but as a benchmark from which I can predict my own performance.

There are similarities in the engine and drivetrain, but we have taken different routes in how we develop our machines. Allert chose to convert his clutch mechanism to full manual control, but the gearbox is otherwise a standard manual unit. I have retained the "auto-clutch" at present, and have only 3 speeds with which to work. I believe Allerts bike spec is a four-speed, but this has not been specified.

I have employed an intermediate shaft, for two reasons (explained earlier in this thread), and have accepted a small additional friction loss as my penalty, but I have built the bike with the overall gearing that I need to meet my target of 100mph. At present I have encountered no difficulty pulling away with this gearing. There is a youtube video of my starting and stopping procedure with this specification. I have since added about 60kg of weight but the bike is easy to launch, so my conclusion at this stage is that Allert need not have worried about this factor. However, his project is his project and it may be that he has seen other benefits that I have not considered.

My project, Project 100, is about achieving a goal, which will prove a point about vehicle design. I do not expect it to be a "daily driver" because the weight penalty of the full bodywork will make acceleration difficult in regular traffic.
I am working on another version which will be more user friendly, using a 250cc single cylinder engine and a six-speed manual gearbox, which I hope will have performance on a par with most traffic situations, but will be less fuel efficient than the 100cc version.

Allert's bike was so close to my mileage target, that I consider he has done it already. If he had carried out his test under optimum conditions, he would easily beat the 100km/1L target. This needs to be a single run over an A-B-A route, with low sidewind conditions, and minimal traffic interference. I will do my proving run for a 50km distance at an average speed of 100km/hr. The trick is to maintain the average speed throughout the journey, stopping and starting kills the economy as the extra weight (of the bodywork) we both carry is a penalty under "normal" conditions.

I'll say it again - I consider that Allerts bike has already demonstrated a level of performance that would see him beat this target under these conditions.
I obviously feel that my machine has a number of significant advantages over Allerts, but until I prove them, he is still the king!

__________________
Project 100 link
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...0-a-18216.html
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 06-29-2014, 11:40 AM   #352 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 82
Thanks: 18
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Love reading all your posts,very exciting stuff and to think only a had full of individuals around the world are exploring the possibilities of aerodynamics,FF,enclosed motorcycles,etc.When you start to look at the incredible gains in range and all the other advantages of streamlining,you have to ask why don't we see more designs,concepts etc.The cost of fuel, reduced emissions,greater range for electrics,performance,increased safety etc.When you start crunching the numbers,the amount of fuel that could be saved,just through the use of aerodynamics[real world numbers] is in the hundreds of billions of dollars annually in savings.,just in American.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 07:35 PM   #353 (permalink)
Stick your neck out...
 
visionary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 135
Thanks: 15
Thanked 67 Times in 37 Posts
3 year review

As I write this, the 3 year anniversary of the start of this thread is fast approaching. It’s a scary thought, 3 years spent on this project and its still far from finished! I thought I would write a brief summary of the work so far, about the targets and how I’ve missed them. And maybe it will assist others who embark upon this type of work in the future.

So what’s gone wrong?
With hindsight, I can see that I approached this project in the wrong way – put simply I have tried to build the vehicle that I envisioned, rather than build the vehicle that I was capable of. This wasn’t due to a skills gap, at the outset I was a skilled fabricator and welder with extensive engine building experience. I also have years of vehicle body design and composite construction experience to draw upon, but my ambition has led me into areas where I am weak, needing to either learn new skills or acquire new equipment, or both. And compounded by constant redesigning of parts, as I strive to make improvements to my original design, the pace of progress has slowed.
The project also exploded! It has revealed itself as being much larger than I expected, once started I saw there was a lot more to do than I had imagined. This is mainly due to my ambition to build a genuinely ground-breaking vehicle. So I have found myself taking on more than I needed to, usually because my budget (or lack of it) has prevented me from “buying in” a solution.

Among many other diversions, here are some of the specific reasons for getting side-tracked -

I have built my own large-scale vacuum forming machine (which is still not finished) in order to do my own canopy. This has taken many hours of work and will not feature on the machine for at least another 18months.

I have adapted a cabriolet folding roof hydraulic system to activate my canopy opening and parking stand operations.

I have acquired parts and equipment for not just one, but two alternative engine options, and although I am not very advanced with the necessary modifications, it has still soaked up a lot of time.

I have started building a completely new “Hossack” inspired front suspension system to fit within the low nose bodywork.

I’ve also been drawn into the complex subject of aero-stability, which is something of a black art, and have started a project that will enable me to accurately predict the drag and sideforce acting on my full-bodied design. This is genuinely groundbreaking research and will divert my attention massively.

A simple summary of all of the above, is that I have bitten off more than I can chew!

So what’s gone right?
Firstly, and most importantly, I remain convinced about validity of my design. I am more confident than ever, that a fully-enclosed two-wheeled single person vehicle will open up a new class of transport solutions for people. I’m adamant that modifying existing motorcycles can only get you so far, and a fresh start offers the best long-term solution.

Secondly, I’m certain that design & development go hand-in-hand (at least for prototypes). I firmly believe that evolving the design as you build it, is the most efficient design method. When I started the project I had a well-considered AutoCad model and a high level of confidence that everything important had been taken into consideration. But at almost every stage in the work I have found a better way to achieve my goals. Sometimes it can take a while for the best solution to present itself, and I have learnt to be patient and dwell on alternative ideas. In an ideal world, I would be doing this work as part of a team. This speeds up the process, as you “bounce” ideas off one-another but it may not be the best way to find “style” solutions, which require a clear vision and ruthless determination. Working on my own, limits the variety of solutions, but each one that emerges fits well within the overall design.

What lessons have I learnt?
Do what you can! Often I can imagine a design solution that would be perfect for the finished vehicle, but making that part would take so much time and money that it really cannot be justified. This is where you need deep pockets, like an existing vehicle manufacturer, to show what can be achieved. An individual, like myself, can only hope to show an idea, a hint at a direction in which vehicle design may evolve. Many times I have looked at other peoples projects and have been “put off” by the crudeness of their work, now I realise why (as my own work looks crude to me) they showed their work – its only the idea that you’re showing, not the execution.
This really is the definition of “concept” vehicle, but we have become so accustomed to perfectly finished concept cars that it is difficult to look beyond the lower standards of “fit and finish”. It costs manufacturers a great deal to produce “one off” concept vehicles, far beyond the means of an individual, so somewhere you have to compromise. This has been a difficult fact to face, but I’m just getting to grips with dropping my standards in order to make some progress.

How to redefine this project
Looking at what’s left, I need to be realistic about targets. Getting road legal in basic form is another six months away, with a standard motor and simple open-cockpit bodywork. Then, fitting the fuel injected 100cc motor will take another 6 months and a similar time for the covered canopy. So my attempts at the targets will come just inside the 5 year mark, not what I had imagined at the start.
The “big gun” in my armoury will be resilience, keeping at it when things get difficult – lets hope next year’s review is a bit more positive (and contains a few more pictures)
__________________
Project 100 link
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...0-a-18216.html
  Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to visionary For This Useful Post:
Joggernot (07-16-2014), MetroMPG (07-15-2014), user removed (07-15-2014)
Old 07-15-2014, 10:52 PM   #354 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 21,248

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.8 mpg (US)

Winter beater Metro - '00 Chevrolet Metro
90 day: 73.57 mpg (US)

Fancy Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 55.99 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,004
Thanked 5,883 Times in 3,050 Posts
Thanks for the update & summary. That's some soul-searching there!
__________________
Latest mods test: 15 mods = 15% MPG improvement: A-B test, 2007 Honda Civic 1.8L, 5-speed
Ecodriving test:
Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown: Nissan Micra 1.6L



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 11:38 PM   #355 (permalink)
Kraig Schultz
 
ElectricRider66's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Grand Haven, Michigan
Posts: 16

Delta-11 Prototype - '11 Delta 11
Last 3: 369.72 mpg (US)

Green MiniVan - '94 Plymouth Grand Voyager SE
90 day: 20.87 mpg (US)

Electric Festiva - '90 Ford Festiva L
90 day: 126.84 mpg (US)

2015 Nissan Leaf SV - '15 Nissan Leaf SV
90 day: 112.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Keep on working your vision. You are doing great things and many people are learning along with you. Thank you for sharing your project journey with us.

For me, the process of building a bike from scratch has been a learning process that required a lot more than technical knowledge, it's been about developing character.

I've experienced many of your lessons. I took a one year sabbatical in 2008 to build my "ultimate" commuter vehicle. The project turned into 12 vehicle iterations and 4.5 years of sabbatical and is still not done - it never will be. There is a Zen statement, "We are all perfect, and we can all improve". Life is a journey, not a destination. With each iteration, I've had to learn many things.

We, as individuals, with self funded projects must learn to cope with our present level of perfection, while ever striving for the next level.

You are spot on about fit and finish vs. proving out concepts. This has a lot to do with learning humility.

Don't forget options like Todd's Canopies (Todds Canopies - Home) for your windscreen. You must have a European version of this company - someone who's already done the learning and is making something very close to what you need. I wonder what shipping across the ocean would cost for a canopy the size you need?

Purchasing a monotracer might have been a less expensive starting point, but would you have been able to learn all you have? The way we learn best is often by failure - not a real popular thing in our culture - everyone wants quick "success" - but that doesn't build character.
__________________
Kraig Schultz
Looking for New Ideas
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ElectricRider66 For This Useful Post:
visionary (07-17-2014)
Old 07-16-2014, 02:11 PM   #356 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: West Wales,UK
Posts: 72
Thanks: 14
Thanked 53 Times in 21 Posts
Visionary, I'm getting quite exited at the prospect of meeting you.
Many of your comments strike a chord, although my project is nowhere near as ambitious, I have encountered similar problems along the way.
Thank you for sharing your dreams and aspirations.

Ironside.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 07:30 AM   #357 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Canopy making...

Hi, great work so far !! I read you are building a vacuum former for making a canopy for your bike, have you read my "saga of the canopy ' on my blog ? AeroBike Enclosed Motorcycle
I am not sure how well canopies can be vacuum formed , I think the commercial glider canopies are formed over heated super polished aluminium forms - not something that can be done cheaply !! Speaking with V.F. companies, apparently where the hot plastic touches the cooler form, chill marks will ruin the smooth finish of the plastic ... the form also has to be very strong , the form I made for my canopy would have been subjected to 20 tons of air pressure when forming...
The method I ended up using ( free blowing ) worked very well , there is absolutely no distortion looking thru the screen and only requires a basic cheap to make oven, a compressor, a clamping ring and a few other bits and pieces... the disadvantage is you may not get the exact shape to fit the bodywork .. the way around this, ( I wish I had known this before building my bodywork..) is to make your canopy first and make your bodywork to suit..

Contact me if you need more info about this method,

Roger
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to aerobike For This Useful Post:
visionary (08-11-2014)
Old 08-11-2014, 06:21 PM   #358 (permalink)
Stick your neck out...
 
visionary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 135
Thanks: 15
Thanked 67 Times in 37 Posts
Reply to aerobike
Hi Roger, thanks for dropping by! In answer to your question, yes I have been following your blog closely and I paid great attention to the canopy saga. In fact, your experience was influential on my decision to make my own machine.

I have a plastics company locally with excellent experience of free-blowing, but after consulting with them I decided to go my own route, for better or worse. Sometimes these decisions come down to cost and sometimes it’s a principle. When I took this decision it was both! Mostly my time is less valuable than money, so for the cost of one blown canopy I have built an entire machine, which assuming it can be made to work, will represent a good investment. Also, after learning about this fabrication method I am keen to use it for all my exterior body panels. This way I get light simple, yet high quality bodywork, which can be easily replicated and altered to keep pace with my designs.

Initially I got hold of a copy of an industry standard book on the design of vacuum forming machines, and after stripping out the mainstream stuff about high-volume machines, I was able to distil all the useful knowledge into my design. I don’t expect perfect results first time, and I’m sure there is a steep learning curve ahead of me, but I think that long-term I will be ahead-of-game.

I have two damaged glider canopies, which I am using to make my former. The design is a very good fit for my prototype but I’m not expecting to get it right first time and I can make changes for just the material cost. Also another benefit is that if I’m unlucky enough to have a testing crash like your one, I can repair at low cost. On that note, I’d love to get more detail on the crash. There is so little info on how these full-bodied machines perform in sidewinds, you must have a wealth of experience you could impart.
__________________
Project 100 link
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...0-a-18216.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2014, 07:30 AM   #359 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
good luck with the vacuum forming, it was a pity that the only company I found with a large enough machine wanted such an excessive payment !!
They recommended pulling the plastic into a concave mould rather than draping over a male form, I cannot remember their reasoning for this...
Acrylic forms easier than polycarbonate (and has better scratch resistance ), I used 4.5mm thick but have been told that most aircraft canopies are made from 3mm thick...

As for aerodynamics, the best info I have found is in Tony Foale's motorcycle handling and chassis design. After studying this, I think that if I had not reacted to the bike being leaned over with no resultant torque in the handlebars, the bike may have sorted itself out without any problems... I still cannot figure out what would bring the bike back up to vertical if the wind stopped though...
I hope to get back to the bike sometime, but it just doesn't seem to be happening at the moment... lack of a safe place for testing is a bit of a problem too...

Roger
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2014, 12:09 PM   #360 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 343
Thanks: 22
Thanked 105 Times in 76 Posts
Visionary,
Here is a link to making a blown fairing.
The Recumbent Bicycle and Human Powered Vehicle Information Center

And another
The Recumbent Bicycle and Human Powered Vehicle Information Center

I believe there are a couple others there too. Didn't know if you had seen these. Good luck.
JJ

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com