Which Really Costs More: Charging an EV or Filling Up Your Tank With Gas?

[freebeard]

I think Tesla is on top of the game, but is still not quite what I'd want for an EV.

I favor the 'other' electric vehicle manufacturer. Pursuing production with a vehicle that is autonomous ready while the technology progresses. And the robovalet concept is vastly more achievable than full autonomy.

Plus, Tesla doesn't offer a flatbed truck.

[Isaac Zachary]

They also don't offer a station wagon.

[Piotrsko]

Who buys station wagons any more? Everyone is stuffed into an SUV, except for afaik some rare GM and Mercedes owners.

[freebeard]

When I think SUV, it comes out like this:



Sport on the bottom, utility on the top of the vehicle.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

Who buys station wagons any more? Everyone is stuffed into an SUV, except for afaik some rare GM and Mercedes owners.

Nobody. But everything I've researched suggests that lower and longer will get better fuel mileage than taller and shorter. There have been examples of station wagons with more interior space that have more power, cost less and get better fuel mileage than similarly specked crossovers.

Plus the longer and shorter roof is better for amateur radio antennas. One of my car antennas is 17.5 feet long and works best smack dab in the middle of the Prius's roof.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Musk absolutely is to blame for selling a product he couldn't deliver. That said, consumers are to blame too. Who pays for an experimental technology up front AND believes Musks lie that technology just gets more expensive in the future, and that now is the cheapest it will ever be. There are zero technologies that were cheapest in the experimental stage and most expensive once fully mature, adopted, and replicated across the industry.

To date Tesla has been steadily increasing the price of FSD. So at least with Tesla it isn't a lie.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

FSD is still 'beta' which means there are reproducible errors. Happily the beta testers are pretty good about sharing the weaker parts.

Being resentful about the development delay does no good. As a beta tester, I'm impressed with the current performance, a C+ or B- grade.

Bob Wilson

You have an understandable take on FSD for someone that bought it in 2019. At that time it was clear that Tesla will always be 1 year away from true "Full Self Driving" and you are buying a Level 2 system at best.

However, my friend bought in at the beginning trusting that Musk would deliver on that initial promise. I can understand someone being upset that 5 years later what was promised in 1 year has not been delivered and never will be.

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I just looked up on Plugshare and actually the CCS and maybe even Chademo stations are more prevalent than the Tesla stations. If I had a 200 mile range EV, I could quite easily make a car work that charged from those stations. This is interesting.

This is a common mistake. At one time Tesla did have a far larger charging network but CCS caught up and passed them a few years ago. Using the adopted US charging standard that dozens of public charging networks are building out is a clear advantage.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

This is a common mistake. At one time Tesla did have a far larger charging network but CCS caught up and passed them a few years ago. Using the adopted US charging standard that dozens of public charging networks are building out is a clear advantage.

I think one thing I learn from this is that right now EV's are like Colorado weather. As people say around here, "If you don't like the weather, wait 10 minutes."

I was under the impression that Tesla still had the advantage. When I had the Leaf I would go lots of places that only had Tesla stations. At times the only way to get around in the Leaf was off of good ol' 120V at about 12A. Basically that meant finding a camp ground and spending the night for every leg. The few Level 2 stations I would find at times were down and out of service with no indication on PlugShare or anywhere else online.

Taking a look at the trip from here to the inlaws along the route I like to take has a 270 mile leg to the first Tesla quick charge station, then over 300 miles to the next. But with CCS and even Chademo there's one every 120 miles or less along that same route.

Some day I may actually get back into an EV again.

• Instant heat in the winter.
• Quiet driving.
• Nice big battery for stuff like HAM radio.
• Low center of gravity for all that deer dodging and slippery road control.
• The prospect of making my own "fuel" for my car if I wanted to.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

To date Tesla has been steadily increasing the price of FSD. So at least with Tesla it isn't a lie.

Only possible while autonomous driving is in the experimental stage. Once it's mainstream, Tesla is subject to market pricing just like everyone else.

Comma AI is compatible with Teslas and costs in the hundreds, not thousands.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Only possible while autonomous driving is in the experimental stage. Once it's mainstream, Tesla is subject to market pricing just like everyone else.

Comma AI is compatible with Teslas and costs in the hundreds, not thousands.

There is a huge step between Level 2 and Level 4. It is very unlikely that we will have Level 4 or 5 systems in personal vehicles this decade.

Comma AI is legally a dash camera. The "AI" driving software is opensource because the Comma AI can't show the NHTSA that it actually works as even a Level II system. The idea that a cell phone on a window mount is going to be able to actually drive a car at Level 4 or 5 is laughable. The secret sauce to Comma AI seems to be providing inputs that tricks the factory Level 2 system into thinking a human is paying attention.

People underestimate the huge amount of work automakers put into making even Level 2 systems work in their limited use cases and validating that they always work in every use case and vehicle configuration. One tiny coding issue in an edge case can cause a failure. How is an aftermarket company going to test a $1000 driving AI on every vehicle on the road? They aren't they will just throw it out there and if it malfunctions it is on the driver.


Which brings us to the issue of liability. Level 0 to 3 systems still put all the liability of driving on the human driver. If the car crashes it is your fault. Jump to Level 4 and the liability shifts to the AI manufacturer.

[redpoint5]

Which is the brilliance of Comma AI, and why it's the only autonomous system that's profitable.

Musk's mistake was starting at level 4, which as you and I both agree, will not be achievable this decade.

Comma AI gets around legal issues by only selling the hardware, which can accomodate open source software. It seems they are somewhere between level 2 and level 3 automation.

While people are killing themselves by not assuming responsibility for driving in their Teslas, Comma AI requires driver attention. No water bottle in the steering wheel trick.

I'm surprised at the push for level 4, as that shifts liability. I'd work at perfecting level 3 as a goal since liability remains with the driver, and it's simpler to accomplish. Level 4 is a problem for the 2030s, and level 5 should never exist. There is always need to occasionally assume control.