Which Really Costs More: Charging an EV or Filling Up Your Tank With Gas?

[freebeard]

Which is the brilliance of robovalet. An unoccupied vehicle can be as conservative as necessary. And it's Comma AI-ready.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Which is the brilliance of Comma AI, and why it's the only autonomous system that's profitable.

Comma AI is not an autonomous system. You can't take it and put it on a car without an autonomous system and have it drive. It is like a piggy-back ECU in that all it does is trick the signals in the factory system to get a different result.

The Level 2 systems automakers are putting in their cars are profitable.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Musk's mistake was starting at level 4, which as you and I both agree, will not be achievable this decade.

Musk's mistake (or brilliance depending on perspective) was selling a system that will never be more than Level 3 as Level 5

Level 4 is technically achievable today and there are Level 4 systems on the road today driving. I just don't think the cost of Level 4 will get to the point were it makes sense for personal vehicles in this decade.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Comma AI gets around legal issues by only selling the hardware, which can accomodate open source software. It seems they are somewhere between level 2 and level 3 automation.

While people are killing themselves by not assuming responsibility for driving in their Teslas, Comma AI requires driver attention. No water bottle in the steering wheel trick.

Reading their website Comma AI is very clearly Level 2, only if the base vehicle is Level 2 and limited to highway use.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm surprised at the push for level 4, as that shifts liability. I'd work at perfecting level 3 as a goal since liability remains with the driver, and it's simpler to accomplish. Level 4 is a problem for the 2030s, and level 5 should never exist. There is always need to occasionally assume control.

There is a push for Level 4 because that is were the money is there to be made. The commercial space is where the money is at. An over-the-road truck with no driver to pay and no 11 hour per day limit could mint money for the fleet owner. Interstate driving is also the easiest use case for autonomous driver tech to meet.

[hyperEV]

Originally Posted by JSH

Comma AI is not an autonomous system. You can't take it and put it on a car without an autonomous system and have it drive. It is like a piggy-back ECU in that all it does is trick the signals in the factory system to get a different result.

The Level 2 systems automakers are putting in their cars are profitable.




Musk's mistake (or brilliance depending on perspective) was selling a system that will never be more than Level 3 as Level 5

Level 4 is technically achievable today and there are Level 4 systems on the road today driving. I just don't think the cost of Level 4 will get to the point were it makes sense for personal vehicles in this decade.



Reading their website Comma AI is very clearly Level 2, only if the base vehicle is Level 2 and limited to highway use.



There is a push for Level 4 because that is were the money is there to be made. The commercial space is where the money is at. An over-the-road truck with no driver to pay and no 11 hour per day limit could mint money for the fleet owner. Interstate driving is also the easiest use case for autonomous driver tech to meet.

Yup, Waymo is arguably level 4 autonomy

[bwilson4web]

We have a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus:

• $2.75/100 mi - when I charge at home
• ~1/3d of local chargers are free while shopping or eating
• $3.00/100 miles when staying overnight at a motel with free charging
• $3.50/100 miles when just using Tesla SuperChargers

We also have a 2014 BMW i3-REx (Range Extender):

• $2.90/100 miles when charging at home
• ~1/3d of local miles are free when shopping or eating
• $6 premium gas to go 120 miles Huntsville-Nashville, tested 2016
• $24 Electrify America or EVgo fast DC charging, CCS-1, tested 2016

Does this help?

Bob Wilson

[JSH]

Originally Posted by hyperEV

Yup, Waymo is arguably level 4 autonomy

Torc as well. (Autonomously driving Class 8 trucks in Virginia and New Mexico)

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

We have a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus:

• $2.75/100 mi - when I charge at home
• ~1/3d of local chargers are free while shopping or eating
• $3.00/100 miles when staying overnight at a motel with free charging
• $3.50/100 miles when just using Tesla SuperChargers

We also have a 2014 BMW i3-REx (Range Extender):

• $2.90/100 miles when charging at home
• ~1/3d of local miles are free when shopping or eating
• $6 premium gas to go 120 miles Huntsville-Nashville, tested 2016
• $24 Electrify America or EVgo fast DC charging, CCS-1, tested 2016

Does this help?

Bob Wilson

Depends. The idea of the original article was to "prove" that charging an EV was more expensive than driving a gas cars. Reality wasn't a key factor in the equation.

[agfosterjr]

I charge my two electric vehicles for free on alternate days with my solar panels.

OK, it's a big lie but it's feasible in sunny climes. Which only goes to show how irrelevant the question is since it fails to take into consideration all the costs: of batteries, panels, etc. Efficiency = cost, period. That includes energy efficiency: energy efficiency = [financial] economy, period, or to state the case a bit more safely, energy efficiency is a function of dollar economy. Now you might argue that this is only true when the cost of transportation is high, including the cost of transportation of food and fuel for workers, but that effect is visible with our current inflation largely generated by high fuel costs. Moreover the environmental costs of battery manufacture and renewable energy in general leave EVs way behind fossil fuel vehicles unless we really believe that burning coal and such presents an existential danger. And that is the most nonsensical of any of these premises. --AGF

[redpoint5]

Holy smokes, a more senior member than myself with 1 post!

I don't know if I should welcome you to the forum or defer to your experience.

[freebeard]

...or seek out a third possibility. I've seen anomalous join dates before.

Waiting on agfosterjr's 2nd post.

[agfosterjr]

Nice hash tags, you guys.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by agfosterjr

Nice hash tags, you guys.

Never used a hash tag before, but I have used the pound symbol when referring to a number.