Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-20-2009, 09:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
Moderate your Moderation.
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Troy, Pa.
Posts: 8,919

Pasta - '96 Volkswagen Passat TDi
90 day: 45.22 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,369
Thanked 430 Times in 353 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by some_other_dave View Post
@shovel--

Perhaps your car is better than average. Or perhaps your test results only show one specific set of circumstances, not all of the possible load/RPM/temperature/etc. possibilities. But I still think that the average current 40 MPG car puts out far less emissions per mile than the average 1989 40 MPG car.

@cfg83--it would be nice if that were the case. But there isn't enough $$ in it, and the regulatory hurdles would be immense. For instance, if my 914 were a 1976 model year one (and therefore subject to smog testing here in CA), I could swap out the old weird funky analog electronic fuel injection for a modern digital system which reduced emissions by 80%, and it would be labeled "GROSS POLLUTER" and I would have to put it back to its original more-polluting form to pass emissions testing.

-soD
Dave -

I'm sure there are permits and exemption authorities that would allow you to get CARB approval for such a modification... legal loopholes, as it were.

I believe that even in California, upgrading emissions is legal, when done through the proper channels. EPA and CARB both have regulations which allow engine switching, given that the new engine is from/complies to the same emissions standards as the vehicle that it's being swapped into, or is from a newer MY of the same chassis type, and the same manufacturer. There is a caveat, though, in that you can only swap in setups that create a vehicle that is currently considered an EPA approved OEM configuration. IOW, the engine/transmission/drive gear options that came in your vehicle are allowed to be swapped, from the same manufacturer, and in the same chassis type. If a newer model of your same vehicle had updated emissions equipment, there is a chance you could get CARB approval to upgrade your emissions equipment.

__________________
"┐ʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ ǝɹ,noʎ uǝɥʍ 'ʇı ʇ,usı 'ʎlǝuol s,ʇı"

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 11-20-2009, 10:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
PokÚmoderator
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,864

1999 Saturn SW2 - '99 Saturn SW2 Wagon
Team Saturn
90 day: 40.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 439
Thanked 528 Times in 355 Posts
Christ -

I was also thinking that there would be allowances, but I could not have stated it as succinctly.

The whole drivetrain makes sense from an emissions standpoint, because the emissions test is narrow and works on the assumption that the car is otherwise what drove out of the factory. A singular emissions mod could be tuned to just pass the test.

CarloSW2
__________________

What's your EPA MPG? Go Here and find out!
American Solar Energy Society
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 10:58 PM   #23 (permalink)
Moderate your Moderation.
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Troy, Pa.
Posts: 8,919

Pasta - '96 Volkswagen Passat TDi
90 day: 45.22 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,369
Thanked 430 Times in 353 Posts
I've been told both ways about emissions tests in Cali - that you both can and can't change gearing.

From what I've been told, you can, as long as it's something that comes with your vehicle during the same production run. I've been told that if the engine speed doesn't match the dyno speed for your VIN, you fail.

It's been both ways verbally. Without being there, or looking up the laws (which don't apply to me, so you know how far that's going to go... ) I can't say one way or the other for sure.

I do know that there is very little that is legal according to the EPA when it comes to engine swapping. I posted a PDF of the abstract somewhere, either here or on CustomTacos.com.
__________________
"┐ʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ ǝɹ,noʎ uǝɥʍ 'ʇı ʇ,usı 'ʎlǝuol s,ʇı"

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 11:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
Moderate your Moderation.
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Troy, Pa.
Posts: 8,919

Pasta - '96 Volkswagen Passat TDi
90 day: 45.22 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,369
Thanked 430 Times in 353 Posts
Regarding counting the emissions from shipping of new cars -

You also have to count the [substantially higher] emissions from producing and shipping the old car back in the day.

The caveat with new vs. old is that the old car has to be disposed of, versus the new car.

Often, it is more "green" to keep a car with similar ratings on the ground, as long as it passes current emissions standards, than to have all those emissions happen again to make a new car.

If you weren't counting the already placed emissions versus the new car's potential creation of emissions, the new car wins, hands down.

I still prefer older cars because it's more fiscally responsible and feasible to put a few thousand into fixing up an older car "good as new" than to spend $20-$40k on a new one. Frankly, I don't know too many people (in the current economy, especially) that can comfortably "swing" that.
__________________
"┐ʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ ǝɹ,noʎ uǝɥʍ 'ʇı ʇ,usı 'ʎlǝuol s,ʇı"

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 11:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
PokÚmoderator
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,864

1999 Saturn SW2 - '99 Saturn SW2 Wagon
Team Saturn
90 day: 40.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 439
Thanked 528 Times in 355 Posts
Christ -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
I've been told both ways about emissions tests in Cali - that you both can and can't change gearing.

From what I've been told, you can, as long as it's something that comes with your vehicle during the same production run. I've been told that if the engine speed doesn't match the dyno speed for your VIN, you fail.

It's been both ways verbally. Without being there, or looking up the laws (which don't apply to me, so you know how far that's going to go... ) I can't say one way or the other for sure.

I do know that there is very little that is legal according to the EPA when it comes to engine swapping. I posted a PDF of the abstract somewhere, either here or on CustomTacos.com.
Hmmmm, I guess I was lucky because they never used the 5th gear that I swapped. In 2007 when I passed, I didn't have the 5th gear, but they only went as high as 3rd gear in their test. In 2009, they only went as high as 2nd gear.

But even if they had an issue, my gear swap would have complied with your statement. But it's a good thing I didn't swap the whole tranny, because I didn't have to deal with it.

CarloSW2
__________________

What's your EPA MPG? Go Here and find out!
American Solar Energy Society
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 11:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
Moderate your Moderation.
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Troy, Pa.
Posts: 8,919

Pasta - '96 Volkswagen Passat TDi
90 day: 45.22 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,369
Thanked 430 Times in 353 Posts
Again, I don't know for sure exactly how that would work, I'm only postulating based on what I've been told... And postulation is usually on the same field as flatulence, is it not?

(Opinions are like a**holes... everyone's got one, etc... etc.. )
__________________
"┐ʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ ǝɹ,noʎ uǝɥʍ 'ʇı ʇ,usı 'ʎlǝuol s,ʇı"

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2009, 12:13 AM   #27 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
roflwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,490

Camryaro - '92 Toyota Camry LE V6
90 day: 31.12 mpg (US)

Red - '00 Honda Insight

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius

3 - '18 Tesla Model 3
90 day: 152.47 mpg (US)
Thanks: 349
Thanked 120 Times in 79 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by some_other_dave View Post
@cfg83--it would be nice if that were the case. But there isn't enough $$ in it, and the regulatory hurdles would be immense. For instance, if my 914 were a 1976 model year one (and therefore subject to smog testing here in CA), I could swap out the old weird funky analog electronic fuel injection for a modern digital system which reduced emissions by 80%, and it would be labeled "GROSS POLLUTER" and I would have to put it back to its original more-polluting form to pass emissions testing.

-soD
Not if you did it right. Go get a newer model year package (engine along w/ emissions systems, the state ref won't care about gearing although its "technically" illegal), install it as per factory spec, make an appointment w/ your local ref, and if everything's installed right and working, they'll give you a nice new MY designation for your much cleaner car after it passes a modestly priced smog check and inspection.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2009, 12:19 AM   #28 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
roflwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,490

Camryaro - '92 Toyota Camry LE V6
90 day: 31.12 mpg (US)

Red - '00 Honda Insight

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius

3 - '18 Tesla Model 3
90 day: 152.47 mpg (US)
Thanks: 349
Thanked 120 Times in 79 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
From what I've been told, you can, as long as it's something that comes with your vehicle during the same production run. I've been told that if the engine speed doesn't match the dyno speed for your VIN, you fail.
There's no dyno speed for smog, just engine speed. If that was true all those lifted trucks w/ huge swampers would fail every year because doubling the tire diameter can radically change gearing.

I've had a state referee tell me point blank that even though it's technically illegal to change gearing, as long as it passes smog they'll let it slide because they do not want to disassemble a gear box or axle and count the teeth in order to prove it isn't the OEM gearing, which is what they would have to do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2009, 12:29 AM   #29 (permalink)
Moderate your Moderation.
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Troy, Pa.
Posts: 8,919

Pasta - '96 Volkswagen Passat TDi
90 day: 45.22 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,369
Thanked 430 Times in 353 Posts
The dyno speed is correlated to an applied vehicle speed, based on the OEM gearing. The dyno test is designed to check emissions at specific vehicle speeds, not engine speeds, AFAIK. It's kind of retarded, either way, because emissions laws in this country should be performance based, rather than "you're a stupid car owner, don't touch it".

If you can make it better, even if it's not OEM or a "registered" configuration, it should be legal, period. Too bad the idiocracy on capitol hill would never let that happen, right?
__________________
"┐ʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ ǝɹ,noʎ uǝɥʍ 'ʇı ʇ,usı 'ʎlǝuol s,ʇı"

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2009, 12:36 AM   #30 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
roflwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,490

Camryaro - '92 Toyota Camry LE V6
90 day: 31.12 mpg (US)

Red - '00 Honda Insight

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius

3 - '18 Tesla Model 3
90 day: 152.47 mpg (US)
Thanks: 349
Thanked 120 Times in 79 Posts
I've never heard of that, do you have a source? All they do is attach a sensor to the spark plug wires, and get it up to whatever engine speed to smog computer tells 'em to, then hold it there give or take. Doesn't matter if my truck has little 12" tires or big old mudders, they'll get it to whatever engine speed the computer says to.


Last edited by roflwaffle; 11-21-2009 at 01:06 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electric car conversion: Project ForkenSwift MetroMPG Fossil Fuel Free 1041 07-28-2014 09:19 AM
EcoModding for Beginners: Getting great gas mileage. SVOboy EcoModding Central 55 08-20-2012 11:34 PM
Buying a second hand car........advice? mikewilkinson1 Off-Topic Tech 6 10-24-2009 04:49 PM
Need Advice: Buying car directly from owner Wayneburg The Lounge 10 02-27-2009 09:29 PM
Active grill block idea holypaulie Aerodynamics 17 10-13-2008 09:31 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com