Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

[comptiger5000]

We've had no problems with ethanol gas in the family boat for the last 4-5 years. We fill the tanks (2x 210 gallons) at the end of the season and add Sta-Bil, so they're stored full. Both 454s and the Onan generator fire right up in the spring, and have every time so far. That gas usually lasts until it's about 9 months old too, and we fill when we're at 3/8 to 1/2 on those tanks.

[Nerys]

yeah but giant inboards and gennies are more tolerant than 40+ year old outboards :-)

[Funny]

Have you considered a vacuum for drawing the gas-water mix through a filter? It would allow you to remove the water without wasting any gas. You just need to find a coalescing type fuel filter like the kind they use for bio-diesel. Like this crude drawing that looks like a two year old drew it... though I did.

It shouldn't be all that difficult, and some of the time the filters are able to be reused by dumping out the water.

If you didn't care to use the fuel filter, you could use the same setup with the toilet paper trick described earlier.

[Nerys]

?? so toilet paper filters will remove the water but let the gasoline pass? how does that work? toilet paper seems to absorb gasoline as readily as water.

also I think I figured out my woes this tank. This tank started off REALLY bad I mean the gsa needle was almost visibly going down like it was getting 30mpg or worse!

but I also noticed I had what "felt" like a lot of extra power. it also takes more cranks to start up cold. (warm starts are still instant)

I think what happened is that I hit a critical mass of washed gas and this caused what E10 was inside the tank to "phase separate" on me resulting in overnight sits having some water at the bottom maybe?.

this is a minor threat since the car uses a recirculating fuel delivery system so it gets "mixed up" again rather quickly.

so instead of going back to a 70/30 mix to confirm I am going to go full on washed and see what happens in theory this fill up in a few days will have so little E10 left in the tank that any resultant loose water should be gone by then and we will see what happens.

after about a third of a tank this time suddenly the mpg is skyrocketing again. So much so that I almost caught up to where I normally am! I am hoping that means the "water" is gone now.

we shall see.

any more details on the filter? we are talking about potentially half a gallon of water per run. where would the water go? water sits at the bottom since its heavier than gas so how would the gas "get" to the filter?

First while I recorded 54.24 mpg I think I actually got 56.9mpg. When I filled up I filled to the top of the neck IE I could see gas and it did not go down anymore. this is about half a gallon more than a "normal" fill. BUT I want to keep to actual verifiable numbers. I did not measure 56.9 so I won't use it. If its accurate it will show in the long haul.

On the next tank as I mentioned I "upped" the washed gas content to over 85%

this tank started BAD. car still ran great in fact it had more power than usual. But the FE was horrid the gauge was dropping and dropping fast! I was like what the heck?

I know gas holds some water especially with me washing it like I am. Maybe I hit a critical mass of water and it was starting to hurt my FE ? (and would explain the apparent extra power but that could just be my imagination)

I was going to cut back on the washed gas and fill up with 3.6 gallons of regular and then add washed gas to fill (ie the same ratio as the first tank)

but then it hit me. it also took more cranks to stat up in the morning. instead of the usual instant start it took 6+ seconds of cranking (always started normal I just noticed this odd delay)

warm starts are still near instant.

then it hit me. I now have over 85% maybe over 90% washed gas. its possible this amount of water contaminated washed gas "INDUCED" the water in the 1-2 gallons of E10 still in the tank to "phase separate" spontaneously.

ie I would be getting a nice "dose" of water gas in the morning as the tank settles! thankfully these cars use recirculation delivery. I think you guys told me that and its what caused me to want to attempt this IE no chance of a continuous water supply damaging my engine since its always being "stirred up"

THIS might explain it. Why do I think this? after about 130 miles of horrid scary FE (but no bad behaviour) suddenly its gone. The starts are a little faster and the FE is sky rocketing (again seat of the pants feel by looking at the fuel gauge so its NOT accurate or scientific)

IE maybe the water is gone or almost all gone. The solution then is NOT to go backwards but to stop using E10 all together and use washed fuel only otherwise I invite another bout of phase separation.

So thats what I will do. I am going to build another rig since its only $6 in parts and I already have another water bottle and I am going to let it decant for an extra long time to get as much water out as possible and keep going. If I continue to get positive results I will start planning the trip to allentown.

I now have 5 5 gallon gas cans. I figure I need 3 more so I can get at least 40 gallons of fuel for some long term ABA testing. Now that I know I have a separation issue when mixing washed and unwashed fuel So I though I needed to figure out how to solve that or at least minimize its side effects.

Then I realized the PROPER E0 from allentown won't be WASHED gas it will be normal ethanol free regular gasoline! so it won't be an issue at all!

If I were to ABA my washed gas it would be an issue but I have no plan to do that since this is just to determine if its worth making the trip to allentown.

So onward and upward :-) 249 miles to half tank mark and thats with HORRID HORRID FE the first 130 miles so I have almost caught back up!

IF my guess is correct the next tank with almost zero E10 in it should be really good :-)

[Funny]

First off - Try and slow down, you sound like you need to reduce the caffeine uptake if you know what I mean
I know you're excited, but slow down, or you might make a mistake. Alright, now:
1. if you put a vacuum on the outlet side of a sealed drum, and on the inlet side (the side where you have the reservoir of water-washed E10) the E10 mix gets pulled through the filter without going into the vacuum pump, because it is creating a vacuum in the sealed drum.
2. The sealed drum having a lower pressure than the atmosphere causes the E10 mix to want to travel down the pipe into the drum to equalize the pressure. you can use this equalization pressure to force the gas mix through a filter of your choice. The reason toilet paper is suggested is because the fibers that make up toilet paper are cellulose (wood fiber), this means they are hydrophylic (they LOVE water) the gasoline is not as readily absorbed into the fibers and therefore pass by the now waterlogged fibers - because they don't like water (hydrophobic). That is how the toilet paper can be used as a separator. Look up fuel water separator filters...
3. If you use a coalescing fuel filter, it does the same kind of thing, but it has a chemical treatment on the filter media that prevents the water from going by it, but lets the gasoline or diesel by without a problem. The water that sits on top of the filter and doesn't go through it can them be taken out if the filter is a serviceable kind. You might as well go with the toilet paper - it will likely be cheaper.
I'm sorry for the brief science lesson, I just do that stuff at work , so it interests me.

[Nerys]

I understand the basic concept but what happens once the filter is clogged with impassable water? how does the gas "get" to the filter? its cheap enough that I am just going to try it and see what happens :-)

but my (very likely flawed) logic of how this works saw a conflict and I was interested in the reasoning to resolve it :-)

do I dunk the toilet paper in water first? (otherwise whats to stop it from just absorbing the gasoline?)

thanks!

[Funny]

Cellulose doesn't "like" gasoline like Cellulose likes water. The fibers that make up the paper are what absorb the water, the gasoline fills the pores in the paper. In other words, the voids in between the fibers hold the gasoline in the paper. Water, on the other hand, gets absorbed into the actual cells of the fiber. This is called plasticizing cellulose. I hope that helps.
And you could always use the vacuum to draw the gasoline upward through the filter, and have the water fall back down with gravity. Just a thought.

[Nerys]

Hmmm can I gravity feed this thing? bucket up high through toilet paper filter to bucket down low and just let it run? I do not think there is enough water in my already decanted washed gas to completely fill a toilet paper roll. Wasteful but I only need to do it for a few tanks to confirm results.

[rmay635703]

A bypass filter is commonly called a toilet paper filter, but it really isn't toilet paper.

Also some here have alluded to the use for your water/alcohol.

Water/alcohol mist in the intake. AKA Water injection.

Since you have the stuff why not use it? This method increases the apparent octane of the fuel to the engine.

Usually a windshield wiper pump and some hoses are all that is needed to do it.

Worthwhile.

[Frank Lee]

Ha Ha, pull the ethanol out of the fuel then dump it back in! Love it!