Scangauge purchases (potential group buy) - Closed

[Silveredwings]

I just saw your posting about the extra $5 (sorry, I haven't been keeping up with the thread). That seems pretty steep of PayPal, but let me know how you'd like me to make up the diff. I'd be glad to do another PP, or send a check or whatever. Let me know.

[Effin]

Any updates?

[cmags]

^^ I'm just as anxious, but it sounds like Paypal is stalling the deal by taking 3-4 days (tomorrow or Monday) to get the money to Reformed's account. I suspect he'll put in the order Monday or Tuesday, though I doubt any of us will complain if you get to it this weekend, Reformed!

[Nerys]

Thats one of the criminal natures of the banking system. This is actually not paypal doing anything. ALL bank transfer except "wires" take 3-5 days. The reason for this is simple. Once it has LEFT the origin account but NOT arrived at the destination account the money belongs to the bank and THEY can earn interest on it. Thats why it takes 3-5 days. There is no technical reason for it.

Some say how much interest can they make in 3-5 days. its not about 3-5 days. its 3-5 days TIMES the number of dollars of ALL transfers AND times the amount of all those transfers. Trust me its millions of dollars in interest :-)

Imagine if every time I handed someone a dollar you made 1 penny. Now imagine I did this 100 million times in a year. Suddenly that penny is not chump change any longer :-)

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally Posted by Nerys

Thats one of the criminal natures of the banking system. This is actually not paypal doing anything. ALL bank transfer except "wires" take 3-5 days. The reason for this is simple. Once it has LEFT the origin account but NOT arrived at the destination account the money belongs to the bank and THEY can earn interest on it. Thats why it takes 3-5 days. There is no technical reason for it.

Some say how much interest can they make in 3-5 days. its not about 3-5 days. its 3-5 days TIMES the number of dollars of ALL transfers AND times the amount of all those transfers. Trust me its millions of dollars in interest :-)

Imagine if every time I handed someone a dollar you made 1 penny. Now imagine I did this 100 million times in a year. Suddenly that penny is not chump change any longer :-)

It's actually not criminal per se, it's just how banks make money.

Predatory lending and jacking up CC rates are both way lower on the ethical/morality scale.

Between all the members of this board I think we can find a money transferring system that is as ethical and efficient as possible. While we're waiting for resolution of this issue, let's discuss that.

Anyone know the current status of the PayPal account structure, meaning, is there still a free version that allows one to accept only cash and charges no transaction fees?

Also one thing to note in PayPal's favor is that they pay good rates on money kept in their accounts.

Are there other money transferring systems out there?

Sending cash in the mail is probably the cheapest, depending on the amount, but it's technically illegal. Of course millions do it and it turns out fine 99% of the time but there's no recourse for a delivery mistake/failure.

Let's keep the discussion going, there are already people in for the next batch, let's hear their ideas, too!

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by OfficeLinebacker

It's actually not criminal per se, it's just how banks make money.

Also one thing to note in PayPal's favor is that they pay good rates on money kept in their accounts.

Are there other money transferring systems out there?

I think paypal has one of the highest rates, but it's not FDIC protected last I checked (which was a long time ago).

As for transferring, yes... They have a debit card (or did) - which is an "instant" transfer Quotations because no debit transaction is instant - funds are instantly available, but it takes a small amount of time for the transaction to complete.

[Nerys]

It most certainly is not illegal to send cash in the mail. Its just not advisable IE quick way to end up with an empty envelope on the other end.

If the banks stated YES we hold the money in limbo for a few days to make some interest on it then FINE its not criminal. Alas this is not what the banks do. They claim its a technical issue that it actually takes this long to transfer money.

Well why is it you can CHARGE a credit card instantly but you can not REVERSE the charge in less than 3-5 days.

There is no technical reason which means there lying. That is fraud and deception. Hence criminal.

Paypal is very evil. BE CAREFUL. as with most things they have to stay legal so as long as you DO IT RIGHT your ok most of the time.

The problem is that paypal behaves acts and functions like a bank but technically is NOT a bank so you have ZERO of the normal state and federal protection that come with dealing with a bank.

Under normal circumstances this is irrelevant. Under abnormal circumstances it can ruin your life. For example paypal can "freeze" your account for quite literally any reason they want and that money is not GONE for at least 6 months or more. Nothing you can do about it.

One lady sold some kind of antique purse on ebay. It was a normal auction NO buy it now or anything. So the users BID on it to the price they wanted to pay.

The winner paid $2500 for it. Now this is an auction. Short of something being WRONG with it that was not agreed upon sales are non negotiable.

Well the buyer got buyers remorse and decided she did not want it anymore. There was nothing wrong with it she just did not want it any longer for whatever reason.

Well under normal conditions on earth this is a Oh Well you should not have bought it. She fought and argued and eventually convinced paypal (probably by threatening to reverse the charge illegally) so paypal TOOK the purse back and refunded her money.

OK fine so far if paypal wants to eat $2500 thats there business. Well here is were it got nasty.

They then proceeded to dip into the sellers BANK account (when you set it up you are GIVING them two way access they can deposit AND withdrawal) and TAKE the $2500 back without her permission and illegally and then ask her you want us to send you the purse back??

WHAT THE HELL does she want with it she sold it!

Thats paypal for you. Be very careful. Handling paypal is iffy business. Here is how you can maximize your protection.

You have to understand once basic premise. ONCE THEY HAVE YOUR MONEY. they no longer want to, have to, or desire to deal with you. Its YOUR problem now. Remember that. As long as they still have something to gain they will work with you. Once they have nothing to gain they will stonewall you. With a smile too.

SO you set up a free checking account where that is the ONLY account you have at that bank. (make sure its not "merged" with one of your other banks more on this later)

You never leave more than 2 or 3 dollars in the account. When you sell something the terms are simple. I will ship when I have CASH in my HANDS.

So what happens when they pay you $2500 with paypal? Nothing. Do you have cash in your hand? can you pay your mortgage with that E-Mail from paypal saying you got paid $2500? No.

Get the paypal debit card goto an ATM withdrawal the money. If its too much $2500 then you Transfer the money to your bank account and WAIT the 3-4 days for it to clear (keep in good communication with the buyer so they understand you got the payment notice and are awaiting the clearance of the funds)

Once its cleared you GO TO THE BANK and WITHDRAWAL the money.

Now and ONLY NOW do you ship that item. Period.

Here is why. Lets put you back in the scenario of the lady selling the antique purse.

What happens if SHE did this. Well first of all there is a chance the bank would refuse a $2500 debit if there is only $3 in the account but because of the way its set up they may very well accept it (I have no idea if there are monetary caps so lets assume it works)

What happens? Well the lady got her money back and paypal got there money back and your left with a negative $2500 balance. Well you only had $3 in there so you did not actually LOSE anything but the $3 now you DO have this negative balance and your still obligated to clear that.

Here is where I said once they have your money...

WELL the lady got her money. She will ignore you. Paypal got there money they will ignore you.

THE BANK however has this $2500 negative balance. Technically they could ignore you and screw with your credit (not hard to dispute and defeat) but they want this cleared they want there $2500 back.

NOW they will talk to you. NOW you have some leverage. Make it clear (politely) that you will not under any conditions be resolving this negative balance. Make it clear you will walk away and see them in court and still you will not pay that balance. Make sure they are clear on this. Make sure short of defaulting the account attacking my credit there is nothing you the bank can do about this. NOW explain to them what paypal did.

Explain to them your problem is with paypal NOT ME. They took the money back without permission and illegally refunded the customer. So go after paypal.

Will they? Probably not but there IS a chance. If the bank applies enough pressure to paypal they MIGHT do the right thing. Challenge the buyer to cough up the dough legally. You see its far far easier and cheaper to TAKE the money back from you quasi legally under the TOS they have with you (yes it lets them do that) than it is to do the right thing and have to deal with a charge back from the CC company. Remember there NOT a bank so you have VERY little real protection from them.

You might lose that bank account. You might lose your paypal account. BUT YOU WILL NOT have lost your $2500. Thats the important thing.

Also if you ever use paypal again make sure you NEVER leave any money in that account or they may "claim it" and take it from you to satisfy the old "manufacturerd debt"

but at least you did not lose your money.

THATS how you deal with them.

[trebuchet03]

Normally I don't do this - because I tend to be verbose... But that was way too long, and I stopped reading about a third of the way through...

And you really ought to read what you're agreeing to when you sign up for a bank account or paypal account... It's all right there - hell, some banks (one of my banks, for instance - SunTrust) have little signs at each teller box... They're long and wordy, but if you care to read them - it's all there... Cash = instant, electronic transfers from other banks - up to 7 business days, checks from other banks, same.... If the amount of float time is a metric for evil - this one's pretty freaking insane...

Paypal has it on it's website, in not fine print form either....
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/ma...225&isSrch=Yes

A confirmation form appears for you to review. If everything is correct, click Submit to initiate the transfer. The money will be placed in your bank account within 3-4 business days.

Read to what you're agreeing to before you agree to it... This isn't a novel idea

Well under normal conditions on earth this is a Oh Well you should not have bought it. She fought and argued and eventually convinced paypal (probably by threatening to reverse the charge illegally) so paypal TOOK the purse back and refunded her money.

OK fine so far if paypal wants to eat $2500 thats there business. Well here is were it got nasty.

They then proceeded to dip into the sellers BANK account (when you set it up you are GIVING them two way access they can deposit AND withdrawal) and TAKE the $2500 back without her permission and illegally and then ask her you want us to send you the purse back??

1 - it's not illegal - and you agreed to it...
2 - there's a name for this, it happens every day thousands of times... It's called a charge back. Merchant processors have to stay under a certain percentage to keep their rates under contractual agreement, but this is completely legal and again, happens every single day with ALL processors (like paypal). Discover (or maybe it was Chase - it's been awhile since I've done anything with merc. process) card happens to be a pretty crappy one when it comes to things like this...

Moral of the story, read the freaking user agreement be it for Paypal, bank, etc.

[Nerys]

Actually the debit system is instant as well. Thats also more "fraud" on the part of the bank. OK goto wawa and buy a soda using your bank card. Now 30 seconds later log into your bank account. Interesting the soda is already deducted from your account. NOW your gonna say wait a minute it says pending.

Well that pending is purely artificial. Whats pending about it?

Here is where it gets nasty. Here is where you get into Racketeering and Embezlement. (except its legal if your a bank)

First some definitions. Embezlement is when you "handle" someones money and you "fudge" the records to basically steal money from them.

Racketeering is when you "charge" for a condition and that condition is an intentional result of your own creation. IE you "fabricate" a condition with the intent of making someone pay you to relieve that situation.

I walk into your deli and say I want $100 a week protection money. You reply Protection from who? I reply as I smack my fists ME you moron.

I am CREATING a situation (me beating you up or tearing apart your store) and then demanding you pay for a service to protect yourself from .... ME.

Get it? good.

Ever get an OVERDRAFT or INSUFFICIENT FUNDS charge? there usually $29-$35 most (90%) are now $35 some MORE. all my banks except one is $35.

You write a check for $50. you only have $20 in the account. The bank can accept it over drawing your account or they can bounce it and charge you the INS fee.

Either way they get $35 from you. YOU WANT them to overdraft because if they do not the OTHER END will also charge you fees. On a credit card payment this can quickly cause a bounced $15 payment to turn into $140 in fees!! if your close to you limit and you schedule your payment for the due date. The bank bounces it $35 fee. The Credit card company charges for the bounce as well $35 and now your LATE another $35 and now your OVER your limit another $35 (no I am not kidding) Thats $140 you have to pay in fees and you also still owe the $15 payment.

Thats criminal enough but it gets EVEN better.

Lets get back to that PENDING thing. you see there is another law. When you write checks they are dated and number. Check # 854 855 856.

Clearly one might think you intended them to go in that order. but checks are funny they have to be MAILED IN (in the past) so what happens if the bank RECIEVED check #853 and then gets check #859

What happened to #854-858 ? do they have to WAIT till those come in before they can cash 859? are they lost? Delayed? not even used?

So law was passed permitting the bank to "reorder" your transactions in any order they desire. so they can cash 859 without waiting for the earlier number to arrive. Makes sense right? sure makes sense to me.

Here is where it gets sticky. DEBIT cards. They virtually eliminated check usage over night. Well thats a problem banks make a LOT of money from those odf and ins fees.

They also ABUSE that authority to reorder the transaction. More on that later.

Debit cards eliminate both since there is no check to bounce and if there is not enough money the transaction will decline (IT IS real time do not let them tell you otherwise)

Well this is where it gets funny. They now without your consent will forward you a LOAN for the amount of the transaction. SO if you have $2 in your account and buy a $2.50 slurpee from 7-11 they will Front you the 50 cents so the transaction goes through.

AND THEN CHARGE YOU $35 for the CONVENIENCE !!!!

SO that $2.50 slurpee just cost you $37.50 ! Cute ehh!!!

and you can NOT turn this "loan shark" deal off its COMPULSORY even though its equivalent to a loan with an APR in some cases in the MILLIONS of a % (no I am not kidding) thats what an interest rate of 70,000% on that 50cents you overdrew?

IT GETS BETTER!! NOW they realized they could still use that law permitting them to REORDER the transaction. BUT thats embezlement to alter ones records.

THATS where the "pending" came from. by marking it as pending its NOT a full transaction yet. its in LIMBO (like checks clearing) NOW they can do some funny stuff.

Let me give you an example. Lets say you go out tonight. You have $60 in your account.

You buy a 4 songs on itunes for $1 each (balance $56) you buy a soda from wawa for $2 (bal $54) you get a movie ticket for $9 (bal $45) then you buy a popcorn for $5 (bal $40)

On the way home you put $21 in the gas tank (bal $19)

Then you pay your charge card $40 (you forgot you only had $19 left) (bal -$21 + 35fee total -$56 in your account)

OK How many transactions do we have. 8 You overdrew the account by $21 the bank covers you and pays it for you. They charge you $35 for the pleasure. OK you screwed up you eat it cause they save you from getting $105 in charges from your nearly maxed out credit card. Life goes on you deposit $56+ to bring your account over zero again. All is good in the world again.

Well you THOUGHT it was. Problem is you see those transactions are still PENDING and the bank decides $35 fee is not enough.

They put your LAST transaction FIRST $40 payment. (bal $20) Then they apply your $21 gas purchase (Bal -$1 +$35 fee) They they appl your Movie Ticket $9 bal -$45 + 35 fee)
They they apply your popcorn purchase (bal -$80 + 35 fee) They they apply your Soda for $2 (bal -$117 + 35 fee) They they apply EACH $1 purchase (bal -$155 +$35 +$35 +$35) for a Final Balance of NEGATIVE -$260

NO I am not kidding THEY DO THIS on a daily basis and its PERFECTLY legal. You only overdrew the account by $21 but they were able to EMBEZZLE the money by REWRITING the transaction order from larger to smallest to "maximize" the number of fees they could charge you. In this case thats also why they "covered" the charge payment since it further increases the amount of fees. If it was the ONLY overdraft many times they will bounce it. (depends on the bank)

THAT is why debit transaction are marked as "pending" that simple artificial pending statement lets them do this. They make literally BILLIONS each year on overdraft fees. (go look it up will boggle your mind)

THEY they have the gal to say well you should have overdraft protection. Thats were racketeering comes in. Both with the "front you" the overage (miro loan) and with the over draft protection (which they ALSO charge for more on that later)

If they did not front you the micro loan would you need the over draft protection? If I did not threaten to beat you up would you need the protection services?

The first decade PLUS that I had a checking account it worked as it should. I make a charge and if there is not enough money it declines. When wachovia bought first union is when that changed.

Overdraft protection used to be a logical offering and it was free. I mean its YOUR money in that savings account right? now they charge between $8 and $12 per overdraft transfer. They got even greedier. It used to be a "set" amount was moved for this $50 or $100 or something like that. NO MORE. Now the PRECISE amount is moved. if your overdraw 8 cents they move 8 cents charge you the fee for doing it. Why? well if you overdraw $25 in 4 transactions and they move $50 they only get ONE fee if they move the exact amount they can charge you 4 fees. See?

Its Fraud. Its Embezzlement and its Racketeering. Its quite simple a legalized criminal operation.



THAT is why they are marked as PENDING. :-)

[Nerys]

trebuchet01 (nice nick) you really need to read posts if your gonna reply. I apologize if I was unclear.

1 - it's not illegal - and you agreed to it...
2 - there's a name for this, it happens every day thousands of times... It's called a charge back. Merchant processors have to stay under a certain percentage to keep their rates under contractual agreement, but this is completely legal and again, happens every single day with ALL processors (like paypal). Discover (or maybe it was Chase - it's been awhile since I've done anything with merc. process) card happens to be a pretty crappy one when it comes to things like this...

Sorry man your so wrong its not even funny. Have you ever run a business? do you KNOW what a chargeback is?

Its not easy to fight them UNLESS you keep very good records. We have a family business. WE HAVE NEVER ONCE lost a chargeback claim. We defeat every one of them.

We check ID compare signatures and we imprint physically every single card we have. So we can prove beyond any doubt it appeared to be the right person the physical card was actually here in the store and it processed normally (if it can not be swiped we do not take it) Not only do they charge a higher "hazard" fee for manually punched in transaction but there almost impossible to defend in a chargeback. I can even send the CC company a picture of the person if they want it.

EVEN if a fraud claim is PROPER we still can defeat the chargeback as long as we followed ALL procedures in our agreement and had no reasonable doubt as to the legitimacy of the transaction. IE in that case the CC company would eat it. For example if the Signature on the ID looks nothing like that on the card then you could lose the chargeback since you should have noticed such a large discrepancy etc.. Of it the Child uses the parents card you lose. Etc.. etc..

The way they are supposed to work is this. A legitimate chargeback is in place when it was a FRAUDULENT transaction.

Stolen card. Wrong amount charged. Fees added not greed upon. Double Charging. etc.. etc.. IE when there is a LEGITIMATE reason for the charge back.

Oh I won this on ebay and you know I just do not want it anymore IS NOT A LEGITIMATE REASON and is in DEFIANCE of the terms of the auction and the terms of the agreement you make with EBAY when you sign up.

NOW its pretty hard to fight a chargeback when you have NOTHING physical (such as with paypal on ebay) to make it worse they are not even DIRECT they are intermediaries.

Paypal got sued for this when they tried to make chargebacks illegal in there Terms of Service since it was a violation of there merchant agreement.

Its doable but its a LOT of legal work. That means someone has to be PAID (and well) to do this work. Its easier for paypal to shaft the buyer than to do the work to defend the PROPER LEGAL CHARGE.

IE buyers abuse chargebacks and its easier and cheaper for the companies to screw the vendor or seller than it is to fight the customer.

WE HAVE LAWS in this country. Your not supposed to be able to CIRCUMVENT those laws with a TOS.

The TOS is wrong. Period. Many parts of it are infact quite illegal Good luck getting it in front of a judge.

Remember the ONLY people these "rules" really affect are the very people who have NO real chance of affording to take legal action to resolve it.

Thats why we have to have such strict protocols when taking credit cards (in our business chargebacks are frequent. Husband buys something from us Wife see's it on the charge card husband has to admit he was in an "adult" store or cry foul and say it was not from him and wife pressures him so now he has to further the lie and process a fraudulent chargeback.)

The transaction on ebay was LEGITIMATE. It was valid and binding. If it had EVER gone to ANY court ANYWHERE in this country the judge would have lauged the lady out of the courtroom and said then you should not have bought it you dummy get out of here.

BUT this costs money. Paypal does not want to spend this money so they STEAL your money back and try to hide behind an all encompassing clause in there TOS.

TOS does not mean you can perform ILLEGAL ACTS. The problem is PROVING and affording to PROVE its illegal. Paypal knows your not likely to take the legal route for financial reasons hence they can get away with it.