Seriously, start spending some money!!

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Yes, most people are. The i10 one works with all drivers, not just EM ones.

As with most automations at that scale, it is severely sub-optimal. I'm not sure the i10 one DOES work with EM drivers. Do you know for sure if you can manually kill it with precise timing (or hold a button in for 20 seconds?!?), and will it restart on it's own if you manually kill it?

We should try education too, not just technological compromises and obstructions and costs and complications.

Seriously, quit spending money and learn how to manage heavy equipment efficiently.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by dcb

As with most automations at that scale, it is severely sub-optimal. I'm not sure the i10 one DOES work with EM drivers. Do you know for sure if you can manually kill it with precise timing (or hold a button in for 20 seconds?!?), and will it restart on it's own if you manually kill it?

I have test driven an i10 Blue, but only in "normal driver" mode.

To allow the stop-start to work the engine has to be warmed up, and you have to be at a standstill and put the handbrake on and put it into neutral (manual box only). After a short wait the engine goes off - not sure how long the delay is but it felt like under 10 seconds. Dip the clutch pedal to get into first to set off and it starts again pretty much instantly - by the time the clutch is down and the gear lever moved the engine is running. If you shut the engine off manually it won't restart when you press the clutch - it only auto-restarts if it auto-shutoff even if you put the key back into the run position.

I agree this is sub-optimal compared to an avid EM'er, but to a regular driver this is straightforward and makes a real, measurable difference to their FE.

We should try education too, not just technological compromises and obstructions and costs and complications.

We could, but this is simple technology which makes a real, measurable difference for a normal driver to use. Seems like a positive to me. It also moves the i10 into the £0 a year tax bracket due to low CO2 output FWIW.

Seriously, quit spending money and learn how to manage heavy equipment efficiently.

Doesn't that kind of invalidate the idea of the 'modder' bit in Ecomodder, except for the "nut behind the wheel" bit ?

Although I agree, technique makes the biggest initial gains to anyone before you actually make any vehicle changes.

EDIT - this technology is transferrable - Hyundai and Kia (same company these days) will start to roll it out to all their models. Someone on an Aygo/C1/107 forum has actually added a DIY system to their car as well.

[dcb]

Since we are rightly ignoring the OP here,

I think if a modder were to attempt to infer engine on-ness from the state of the other pedals/controls, it might look a little like:

throttle closed=engine off, no fuel.

throttle open, clutch disengaged, =engine start if not already started.

So you put in the clutch, and give it some gas, and go. Or you let up on the gas and stop.

No idling.

[Big Dave]

This thread speaks to a larger issue.

Like it or not, ecomodders are a subset of the larger hot-rodding community. Ecomodders simply use a different criteria of performance, but they are hot-rodders nevertheless.

But eco-modders are always (including by other eco-modders) dissed as some sort of cheap-Charlie money-saving DIY cult, not serious hotrodders. I go to truck shows and everybody always asks how much do I have to drive to justify what I’ve spent. I ask back, how much do you have to drive to justify $8,000 worth of wheels and tires? As exotic as my drive train is, it did not cost as much as a set of big meats and shiny wheels – not to mention the lift and 4.56 gears to make it drivable at all, etc

I point out that I enjoy my ‘performance’ every day. I get nearly twice the mileage of the average diesel pickup and easily 250% of a gas pickup. My truck is driven. It is not what I call “garage sculpture.” My truck is a high-MPG ‘rat rod.’

If basjoos went to a car show, most of the people there would dismiss it as some some of shade-tree DIY project and go drool on some flashy T-bucket (or other obsolete car.) Only if there were Bonneville types about would his car get respect. Those guys are always on the lookout for the last 0.001 off the Cd. That is life to them. Nobody else cares.

Go to a regular hot rod show and there are $100,000 cars as far as the eye can see. Not a one of them will win the Indy 500 and darn few will ever win a drag race.

How to get respect?

As long as it is just claims of MPG, everyone assumes you are lying to cover up the fact you are driving a shabby-looking vehicle.

I think that if respect is desired, looks matter. I think that we need to move beyond coroplast and duct tape and move into the workmanship like bondo.

And for that you gotta spend some money.

[JQmile]

x 1,000....

If I build another high-mpg vehicle, it will probably be a serious effort with a serious budget. After all, like Dave said, most of us will drive our high-mpg cars everyday.

[Sven7]

Originally Posted by dcb

As with most automations at that scale, it is severely sub-optimal. I'm not sure the i10 one DOES work with EM drivers. Do you know for sure if you can manually kill it with precise timing (or hold a button in for 20 seconds?!?), and will it restart on it's own if you manually kill it?

We should try education too, not just technological compromises and obstructions and costs and complications.

Seriously, quit spending money and learn how to manage heavy equipment efficiently.

This is illegal. That's why. It is against the law to coast in neutral. Forget EOC. And forget car companies tailoring cars for EOC.

Minnesota, for instance:

169.39 COASTING.

(a) The driver of any motor vehicle when traveling upon a downgrade shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.

[Sven7]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Go to a regular hot rod show and there are $100,000 cars as far as the eye can see. Not a one of them will win the Indy 500 and darn few will ever win a drag race.

How to get respect?

As long as it is just claims of MPG, everyone assumes you are lying to cover up the fact you are driving a shabby-looking vehicle.

I think that if respect is desired, looks matter. I think that we need to move beyond coroplast and duct tape and move into the workmanship like bondo.

And for that you gotta spend some money.

You make some very convincing points, but I think the root of the issue, and the driving factor for our... let's call it "aesthetic stagnation"... is the reason for ecomodding in the first place.

The object of a Camaro is to go fast and look good.

The object of a Miata autocrosser is to handle well and go fast.

The object of an ecomodder is to save gas money.

The first two's budgets match the owners' passion. The last affords only enough money to be recouped by fuel savings. Most of us are not in it to have a nice, shiny car. We're in it to save money- putting hundreds of hours into fiberglass, bondo and paint isn't worth it.

I've saved over 10% of the Probe's purchase price in the first 90 days of owning it. I've spent 25% of my Rabbit's purchase price on suspension and go-fast stuff over the past three years while getting EPA mileage.

The end goal is different, therefore the end product is different as well.

Does that kind of make sense?

PS- there are also ecomodders that do it just to "save the planet". These guys may well make their cars shiny, and I'm a big fan of the shiny boattail Insight. But for many of us, the fuel savings dictate the budget dictate the fuel savings. It's a circular logic of money-saving and we all know car projects and money saving rarely go together, especially after we move past coroplast.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Sven7

This is illegal. That's why. It is against the law to coast in neutral. Forget EOC. And forget car companies tailoring cars for EOC.

??? Start stop tech and the prius are already tailored for that purpose.

Originally Posted by Sven7

169.39 COASTING.

(a) The driver of any motor vehicle when traveling upon a downgrade shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.[/B]

What if I coast going on an upgrade such as every time I go up an off ramp?

[Sven7]

At least in MN, and I suspect it's the same everywhere in the US, if you're coasting on a public road you're doing it illegally. End of story. Will anyone ever catch you? No. If they did would you get in trouble for it? No.

I'm no mechanical engineer and no Prius expert- does the Prius disengage totally, or does it keep one driveshaft connected? I imagine it would have to keep something on to comply with state laws.

PS- Dave said we are hot rodders. I would like to propose that while fast cars are hot rods, our efficiency machines might be "cool rods" because, well, efficiency is cool.

[user removed]

Originally Posted by Sven7

This is illegal. That's why. It is against the law to coast in neutral. Forget EOC. And forget car companies tailoring cars for EOC.

Minnesota, for instance:

169.39 COASTING.

(a) The driver of any motor vehicle when traveling upon a downgrade shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.

The coasting laws go back to the mid 1930s when Plymouth came out with freewheeling. Basically it was a one way clutch that allowed you to let off the gas and the car coasted automatically.

The problem was if you were going downhill on some fairly steep grades, like US 50 through the mountains in the western portion of Virginia, if you forgot to disengage your freewheeling you could melt the brakes and go off a cliff.

They could not make the car illegal so the made the act illegal. Today you have cars like the Prius that coast automatically if you position the gas pedal in just the right spot, but the brakes on modern cars and other systems on the Prius do not require you to stop and disengage the freewheeling like you had to do on the old Plymouth.

It does kind of make you think, when you realize that the only reason for the freewheeling option on the old Plymouth was to get better mileage. In the mid 30s the speed limit in Va was 35 MPH throughout the state unless other wise posted.

While the ancient coasting laws still exist on the books, I have asked police officers here if they were even aware of that law. None knew about it and most said it was basically unenforceable since you are coasting in any manual car whenever you push the clutch in to change gears.

regards
Mech