Shifting question: First second then fifth, or use every gear?

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Plasmajab

Ill toss in a spin on it.

For my ranger:

1st 3.91
2nd 2.24
3rd 1.49
4th 1.0
5th 0.8

1st - 2nd =1.67
2nd - 3rd = 0.75
3rd -4th = 0.49
4th - 5th = 0.20

So lets do a 1 - 3 -5 shift.

1-3 = 2.42
3-5 = 0.69 (Nice)

So shifting from 1st to 3rd is a pretty huge drop in my ranger. You'd have to rev it pretty high to get to 3rd happily, but 3rd to 5th is not as huge of a gap.

In my ranger, 1st gear pretty much is like a "Bull low".. Enough to get the truck rolling but little else.

All the numbers are greek to me. Ill have to do some real world testing. Personally on my western star. YMMV. Basically shifting when the engine is in its peak torque curve with as little rpm as required.

So without "splits"

3rd 1000rpm
4th 1100rpm
5th 1200rpm
6th 1300rpm
7th 1400rpm
8th 1500rpm

For my western star, 1000-1700 is where it makes its peak torque. Basically keeping the engine running in the lowest part of the torque band. But I wonder how this would effect a regular car or truck. Of course the rpms would be higher.. But I think Im going to test this out. Thankfully I just so happened to fill my tank.

I doubt you drive much differently empty or loaded. It’s a bad habit to change up for the temporary empty condition. No one cares about your non-revenue miles. Just the loaded ones. Same rules apply (vehicle design).

Thus (for anyone, but around here they’re not interested in economy), you’ll want to load that personal vehicle to 80% of sticker or higher. 13-weeks minimum (calendar quarter; valid habits change with zero deviation) of record-keeping.

Be a good idea to load it per above and take it out for a hard highway run. Heavier, if you can manage it (trailer for higher aero resistance). An Italian tune-up preceding a habits change is necessary.

It’s “fun” to do the Kevin Rutherford thing, so in your personal vehicle you want a feedback gauge to use. An engine hour meter, as metro driving is about

Never idling & Never Stopping

as, it’s your Average MPH that’s at stake.
Higher = Better.


When to Shift
How to Shift

will fall into the decision previously-made to emphasize engine/trans braking for that road stretch. Street type plus traffic & weather. The, “Do Not Exceed”, reference you establish. IOW, a 50-mph road on which you never exceed 45 as that’s a shift point that takes you from Direct into OD.

Then — inside of that — is finagling with some rpm changes.

Empty, anything goes. But it has no meaning. It’s Y x 0. Nice guys here, next to none are serious. The loaded tests are the baseline against an empty by which to know the percentage gap to close. One has to work the drivetrain and brakes plus steering to affect a loaded vehicles momentum in a positive manner. Penalties are immediate. (As they should be). “Empty” pickup only exists on paper, is another way to say it.

TARE, is useful, sure. So is sub-60/mph on cruise. Those numbers represent the possibilities. They just aren’t real.

IOW, the difference between Town & Country can disappear given reasonable use. I took mine to under 10%. Same 1200-lb load. (Truck in sig. Stock. Minimum-allowed tire pressure.) 24-MPG Highway. 22-MPG city.

A plan is required. UPS “No Left Turn” Routing. An errands loop where the farthest point was reached by freeway FIRST. Work back to house. Etc. Accomplish the necessary, but with lowest fuel burn and never compromising safety.

The Key: Once you know the gear choice that promotes throttle-off slowing so that you never have to come to a stop, the rest is an easily-managed daily drama. It’s acquaintance with the roads (as you already know) that make those predictions easier.

Just pretend you’re humping around town for YRC in a day-cab & pup. Just none of that heart-stopping blind-side backing, ha!

.

[Tahoe_Hybrid]

Originally Posted by slowmover

I doubt you drive much differently empty or loaded. It’s a bad habit to change up for the temporary empty condition. No one cares about your non-revenue miles. Just the loaded ones. Same rules apply (vehicle design).

Thus (for anyone, but around here they’re not interested in economy), you’ll want to load that personal vehicle to 80% of sticker or higher. 13-weeks minimum (calendar quarter; valid habits change with zero deviation) of record-keeping.

Be a good idea to load it per above and take it out for a hard highway run. Heavier, if you can manage it (trailer for higher aero resistance). An Italian tune-up preceding a habits change is necessary.

It’s “fun” to do the Kevin Rutherford thing, so in your personal vehicle you want a feedback gauge to use. An engine hour meter, as metro driving is about

Never idling & Never Stopping

as, it’s your Average MPH that’s at stake.
Higher = Better.


When to Shift
How to Shift

will fall into the decision previously-made to emphasize engine/trans braking for that road stretch. Street type plus traffic & weather. The, “Do Not Exceed”, reference you establish. IOW, a 50-mph road on which you never exceed 45 as that’s a shift point that takes you from Direct into OD.

Then — inside of that — is finagling with some rpm changes.

Empty, anything goes. But it has no meaning. It’s Y x 0. Nice guys here, next to none are serious. The loaded tests are the baseline against an empty by which to know the percentage gap to close. One has to work the drivetrain and brakes plus steering to affect a loaded vehicles momentum in a positive manner. Penalties are immediate. (As they should be). “Empty” pickup only exists on paper, is another way to say it.

TARE, is useful, sure. So is sub-60/mph on cruise. Those numbers represent the possibilities. They just aren’t real.

IOW, the difference between Town & Country can disappear given reasonable use. I took mine to under 10%. Same 1200-lb load. (Truck in sig. Stock. Minimum-allowed tire pressure.) 24-MPG Highway. 22-MPG city.

A plan is required. UPS “No Left Turn” Routing. An errands loop where the farthest point was reached by freeway FIRST. Work back to house. Etc. Accomplish the necessary, but with lowest fuel burn and never compromising safety.

The Key: Once you know the gear choice that promotes throttle-off slowing so that you never have to come to a stop, the rest is an easily-managed daily drama. It’s acquaintance with the roads (as you already know) that make those predictions easier.

Just pretend you’re humping around town for YRC in a day-cab & pup. Just none of that heart-stopping blind-side backing, ha!

.

the 60MPH rule is point less depending on the vehicle a good example is going 75mph Actually uses less fuel then going 55 or 60mph


at 75mph it's 14-15mpg on the DIC reported 4th gear v8 mode

as going 60mph will drop it to 3rd gear..the DIC says 9-11mpg


ON a hilly area



if you say go slower 40-45mph on flat land will yield 31MPG in EVT mode

the Op will have to find the Sweet spot on his vehicle

[Silent Blood]

First second then fifth or use every gear?

It depends on the road nature and the gradation of the transmission. When I drove downhill, I often use the 2. th gear, then shifting directly into the 5. th (ans highest) gear.

[Charlie Cheap]

When I built my last 1940 Ford coupe (I have owned 5) I built the 289 out of a 67 Cougar with a 3-speed standard. Everyone asked why a 3-speed rather than a 4-speed. I explained it was better to get into high gear as soon as possible, without lugging the motor, for best economy. With the big car flywheel that was about 10 pounds heavier than the Mustang/Cougar, with 2-barrel, 2.79 gears, 29" tall rear tires, and the engine built for torque at highway speed RPM, it worked great on the interstate. To get 24/25 MPG with 250 HP in a 1940 Ford coupe with tilt steering, multi-speaker stereo, Air Conditioning, cruise control, custom upholstered bucket seats, and Black Lacquer paint that looked wet, was another fun car I drove for 12 years.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Charlie Cheap

When I built my last 1940 Ford coupe (I have owned 5) I built the 289 out of a 67 Cougar with a 3-speed standard. Everyone asked why a 3-speed rather than a 4-speed. I explained it was better to get into high gear as soon as possible, without lugging the motor, for best economy. With the big car flywheel that was about 10 pounds heavier than the Mustang/Cougar, with 2-barrel, 2.79 gears, 29" tall rear tires, and the engine built for torque at highway speed RPM, it worked great on the interstate. To get 24/25 MPG with 250 HP in a 1940 Ford coupe with tilt steering, multi-speaker stereo, Air Conditioning, cruise control, custom upholstered bucket seats, and Black Lacquer paint that looked wet, was another fun car I drove for 12 years.

I'll admit I'm skeptical of less gears = better, as evidenced by manufacturers adding more and more gears to chase economy, but those are more than decent numbers for a car of that era.

~

Today I found myself using 2nd to 6th a couple of times. 2nd gear will do approximately 78mph but the engine has gobs of torque, so I took 2nd from a stop out to around 35 and then straight into 6th. I'm certain this wasn't best for economy, but it was certainly lazy, and I got around 47mpg on my return commute, all city driving in the rain with the outside temperature in the 30's.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I'll admit I'm skeptical of less gears = better, as evidenced by manufacturers adding more and more gears to chase economy

Sure the one-size-fits-all approach doesn't apply, but sometimes a higher amount of gears is not so effective regarding fuel savings and overall performance improvements. Some newer manuals have an excessively narrow gear spread, and a shorter differential ratio is needed in order to give it a minimally reasonable responsiveness from a standstill.

[Michaelflat1]

I too have a Honda Jazz... 2007.
5 speed manual, i do not believe in skipping gears usually.

For constant acceleration, change up gears as early as you can, holding 2nd gear to 50kmh for example means you are holding that gear too long... Unless you are rocketing up to 50kmh at optimum load.

On my jazz, city driving i upshift really early and keep the engine loaded. With careful use of throttle (not too much, not too little) i have these shift points:

1>2nd ~7-8mph (1800>1100rpm)
2nd>3rd ~15mph (1700>1200)
3rd>4th ~20mph (1400>1100rpm) (going off memory all these rpm figures so maybe wrong)
4th>5th ~25mph

These are ultra low RPMs for accelerating... but using torque pro i'm not using too much throttle (which would cause engine knock) and acceleration is not awful.
I've achieved indicated 70+mpg (UK) just around town at 3am after dropping friends home. The jazz seems to really like low RPMs (mine's a 1.3 idsi)

Effective use of DFCO also is good, you need to be above 1500rpm to activate DFCO in jazz, so i find myself dropping a gear / dropping 2 gears when i need to slow down. (rev matched too... dragging the engine rpm up with the clutch kills momentum)

[MetroMPG]

Welcome to the forum, Michaelflat1!

What size engine is in your Jazz?



How did you determine the fuel cut-off point (RPM) - does the car's gauge show instant fuel consumption?

[Stubby79]

First, second, fifth.
...is how I drove my small displacement cars. Ie Miata. You could get up to any legal speed in 2nd, so I would use it to get to speed ASAP and then straight to 5th for economy, and because I didn't need to accelerate any more.

Couldn't skip more than one gear in the 'metro, mind you.

First, third, sixth.
...is how I drive my Z. The close gear ratios and big engine make using all the gears pointless, unless you're trying to have fun. Feels like you're driving a normal 4 cylinder car, if you shift like that at lower RPMs.

The idea, from an economy stand point, is to keep the engine under heavy load as much as possible.

There engine/trans doesn't care what gear you put it in, unless you bog down the engine, or end up over-revving it while down-shifting. Drive how you want.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Stubby79

The close gear ratios and big engine make using all the gears pointless, unless you're trying to have fun.

This might explain why I hardly had any chance to skip-shift, as most of the cars I drove had small engines, even though the gear spread was quite too short for my taste on some.