The Slow Death of the Internal Combustion Engine

[RedDevil]

EVs and grid stability... there's a thing called beneficial electrification.
Specifically: https://www.nrdc.org/experts/pamela-...-your-driveway

It is nice to have a full range available if you leave in the morning. You're not likely to need the full range around 9:30 PM though. So why not free up part of your capacity to help the grid?

[Taylor95]

So you would use some of your battery to power your home?

[RedDevil]

It would in case of a power outage. Otherwise it would operate like a miniature Hornsdale Power Reserve. Which means it doesn't do much most of the time, but may at times power your house and then some towards the grid, as needed.

[oil pan 4]

We have AEP and CMP which service millions of people on the east coast. One in the mid Atlantic and the other up north, they both have 1 thing in common. Public resentment and universal hatred by vast majority of their customers. I believe that the customer base will do nothing to help the power company.

In Virginia who has CMP one of the top reasons people give for switching to natural gas appliances is to lower their power bill. I happen to have a direct line into the PR office at CMP their head spin artist says they know people switch to gas because they hate us.

Most electric vehicle and plug in users struggle to have a simple 240v charging circuit installed and don't have a garage.
So the expectation that people are going to pay several thousand dollars for this system and to install this fancy 2 way charger system, presumably in a garage is very pie in the sky.
Plus the only charging protocol that will allow for 2 way power flow is chadmo.
J1772, tesla and CSS are specifically designed for 1 way power flow.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

It is nice to have a full range available if you leave in the morning. You're not likely to need the full range around 9:30 PM though. So why not free up part of your capacity to help the grid?

While V2G (Vehicle to Grid) sounds nice, the electrical company would need to pay me a whole lot to use my EV battery to power the grid. Why? It would be another charge cycle on my car battery and degrade it. Every cycle used by the electrical company is one I do not have to drive.

Time of use pricing shows when electricity the grid is heavily loaded. My my company that is:

$0.139 / kWh 6am - 3pm
$0.193 / kWh 3pm - 8pm
$0.139 / kWh 8pm - 10pm
$0.035 / kWh 10pm - 6am

Would I sell electricity to the electric company at $0.14? That depends on the price of a replacement battery.

[RedDevil]

Battery degradation depends on many factors, but high currents, excess heat and full charge/depletion are the biggest culprits; if avoided in the V2G scenario there's little to worry about.

Nobody has to love the power company, but making money off them should appeal.
Tesla wants you to buy their PowerWalls and use that for this purpose. It is pricey, but it makes money even when you're away.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

Battery degradation depends on many factors, but high currents, excess heat and full charge/depletion are the biggest culprits; if avoided in the V2G scenario there's little to worry about.

Your biggest culprits are true. However, every battery has a finite number of cycles. Cars are a durable good with a 20-25 year lifespan. Nobody knows if an EV battery will last that long in normal use let alone putting an extra charge cycle on it every day to sell power to the electrical company.

It seems like a perfect money making scenario for someone that leases a car and doesn't car about long term battery life. This makes me think in the future we will need a easy tool to see battery health. (Number of cycles, depth of discharge, temperature history.)

Originally Posted by RedDevil

Nobody has to love the power company, but making money off them should appeal.
Tesla wants you to buy their PowerWalls and use that for this purpose. It is pricey, but it makes money even when you're away.

Whether or not a powerwall makes money depends on cost, the price of electricity bought and sold, and the lifespan of the battery. The last factor is an unknown. However, with a powerwall at least battery degradation isn't as important. At PowerWall with 50% capacity remaining is still useful while an EV with 50% of the original range may not be.

My power company buys power at the off-peak rate if you have time of use billing. This is specifically designed to prevent people from gaming the system by charging a battery bank at night and then feeding the power back to the grid at peak rates.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by JSH

Your biggest culprits are true. However, every battery has a finite number of cycles.

It is not a set number; it depends heavily on the chemistry, but also on build quality etc.

But most of all usage.
NiMH batteries are predominantly used in hybrids (like my Insight). Those batteries are gone after say 2000 full cycles, but can take hundreds of thousands of subcycles in the 40%-80% range, and that's where the hybrid management system tries to keep them.

The same is more or less true for lithium batteries. Avoid the ends of the range.
Teslas with more than 300,000 miles have had thousands of charges and still have more than 80% of their original range left. Those who use their cars less intensively will never reach that mileage and could easily use their excess capacity to enhance grid stability and make money.

Even so, just handsomely timed charging already makes a difference.

[oil pan 4]

Who's going to pay for it?
That's the only thing that matters.

[RedDevil]

Pay for what? You'd probably have a home charger anyway?
Smart electronics that can adapt to electricity cost and demand earn themselves back quickly. The powerwall is a battery on top of that what makes it expensive, but even those do earn themselves back over time.