The Slow Death of the Internal Combustion Engine

[redpoint5]

Your "empty" and "full" is probably more like 30%-75%. I wouldn't be surprised if only half the usable capacity actually gets used.

You'll notice that plenty of manufacturers use NiMH for hybrids, but none use them for cars that plug in. Heck, cordless tools aren't even using those batteries anymore. All mine are lithium ion, and I've started to go brushless on some of them.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zackary

I don't think it's all that much doom and gloom for NiMH batteries. My Avalon can charge the hybrid battery from near zero to full in the time it takes to make it half way down a mountain pass. That's pretty fast charging in my opinion.

Also I was under the impression that NiMH was less damaging to the environment than lithium ion. But I guess I could be wrong.

On another subject, if I were to add additional battery capacity to my Avalon hybrid, NiMH would be the least hassel, not just because the car is designed to charge NiMH, but because there would be less to do with thermal management and with fire prevention.

It's subjective.
If the batteries are recycled, little harm. But with the price of nickel going from a few dollars per pound to $25 per pound you can be most of the nickel used in batteries was recently mined.
There are nickel mines in Russia more toxic than the Chernobyl exclusion zone.

[Isaac Zackary]

Yes, but, but, but, but...

Anyhow, I'm not saying that lithium ion is a worse technology. It is better than NiMH in many respects, and perhaps the best technology for the job. But there are several more things you have to do to maintain and monitor on lithium ion batteries than on NiMH batteries.

I've owned both, a Nissan Leaf with lithium ion and a Toyota Avalon with NiMH. The Leaf has a battery warmer. The Avalon does not (and still starts just fine in -30°F weather and perhaps colder). The Leaf has a battery cell balancer. The Avalon does not. The Leaf has a completely sealed and water tight battery to prevent battery cells from combusting. The Avalon does not.

To me, a short range city vehicle (less than 100 miles) could be a good candidate for NiMH batteries. No need to balance the cells. No need to warm them in the cold. No need to worry about accidental combustion. These cars can basically be made with a thermostat with a fan on the cells, and that's it. I'm not sure how that affected vehicles like the GM EV1. But it seems to have worked out just fine.

Would NiMH work for a +300 mile quick charging car? Of course not!

Now I'm not saying you can't put a lithium ion battery in a short range city car. Many have done it. Honda is coming out with a new short range EV with lithium ion batteries. But why limit ourselves to just one battery type? People might prefer the advantages of a certain battery over it's disadvantages. Lot's of people say they don't want an EV because they are concerned with the batteries being combustible. Some people, me, live where it's cold and are concerned about batteries freezing or battery warmers draining the battery if not plugged in.

Of course you can limit the disadvantages of lithium ion with proper battery and thermal management. But that adds complexity to the car. It also makes it harder on the DIYer's. Not necessarily a deal breaker. But not a deal maker either IMO.

[Taylor95]

Having all these different battery types is not a good idea. It will be confusing to a lot of people.

[Isaac Zackary]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

Having all these different battery types is not a good idea. It will be confusing to a lot of people.

Like diesel vs gasoline vs CNG vs LPG vs E10 vs E85 vs gasohol vs bio diesel vs low octane vs regular vs midgrade vs premium vs I4 vs I6 vs V6 vs V8 vs boxer vs slant vs radial vs automatic vs manual vs dual clutch vs 2 speed vs 3 speed vs 4 speed vs 5 speed vs 6 speed vs 7 speed vs 8 speed vs 10 speed vs CVT vs dog box vs H-shift vs sequential shift vs padal shift vs button shift vs 4WD vs AWD vs 4X4 vs FWD vs RWD vs open dif vs limited slip vs torsen vs locking dif vs front engine vs mid engine vs rear engine vs carbureted vs mechanical injection vs EFI vs TBI vs PFI vs DI vs hybrid vs center spark plug vs side spark plug vs dual spark plug vs compression ignition vs HCI vs homogenous mixture vs stratified mixture vs lean burn vs swirl chamber vs hemispherical vs bent roof vs flat head vs single valves vs dual valves vs 4 stroke vs 2 stroke vs 6 stroke vs N/A vs supercharged vs turbocharged vs ram air vs intercooler vs heated intake vs cold air induction vs two way catalytic converter vs three way catalytic converter vs air injection vs DEF vs SCR vs NOx trap vs etc?

Like that kind of confusing?

Right now my pure EV options are:

Tesla Model S, 3 or X, Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt.

All with these battery options, take your pick:

1. Lithium ion battery 2. Lithium ion battery or 3. Lithium ion battery pack.

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think there's enough EV options to confuse me just yet.

[Taylor95]

Most of those things don't make a difference to the average consumer. And people generally don't buy vehicles that run off of CNG unless they know a few things about the car. Imagine having several different kinds of batteries in EVs. They all charge the same. How will people even know what kind of battery their car uses? This is important because some won't do as well in temperature extremes and may have different optimal charging conditions. Some may take longer to charge as well. That is a lot of information people should know. On a diesel truck, the gas cap says "diesel fuel only", and people still mess that up. Having different battery types will probably accelerate wear because people won't know how to properly use and care for them.

You mention that nickel batteries don't charge fast. What if someone routinely hooked up their car to a Tesla supercharger? Would there be built in protection?

[Isaac Zackary]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

Most of those things don't make a difference to the average consumer. And people generally don't buy vehicles that run off of CNG unless they know a few things about the car. Imagine having several different kinds of batteries in EVs. They all charge the same. How will people even know what kind of battery their car uses? This is important because some won't do as well in temperature extremes and may have different optimal charging conditions. Some may take longer to charge as well. That is a lot of information people should know. On a diesel truck, the gas cap says "diesel fuel only", and people still mess that up. Having different battery types will probably accelerate wear because people won't know how to properly use and care for them.

You mention that nickel batteries don't charge fast. What if someone routinely hooked up their car to a Tesla supercharger? Would there be built in protection?

Limiting everyone to just one choice isn't wise. It has never worked in the automotive industry, and it can lead to an entire line of technology failing due to lack of improvement.

Imagine if in the early days of the automobile people decided not to try different technologies because they weren't the absolute best for their time period? Hitler told Ferdinand Porsche that he wanted him to develop a 4WD, front engine, water cooled diesel car as the original "Kraft durch Freude" car. Was that the absolute best tech at that time? Sounds like it to me. Would it have sold like the VW Beetle ended up selling? Doubt it! Is lithium ion the kind of tech that will really catch on? Could something else do better? We won't know unless someone tries.

What' if we had thrown automatic transmissions, EFI systems and EGR valves out the window long ago? Many people sure wanted to, and lots of those did on their own vehicles. But look how things have improved now! Sure, something like NiMH might not seem to be the best option. But what about in the long run?

Some things end up working for some and others for others. Diesel is great for comercial vehicles, gasoline for personal vehicles. How can we be sure that lithium ion is the best option for everyone?

A big problem with EV sales isn't that buyer's are confused with too many options, but just the oposite; that there aren't enough options.

I didn't say that NiMH don't charge fast. I think they charge really fast. 50% charge in 15 minutes isn't slow IMO. That could be 80% in 30 minutes or less.

[freebeard]

Imagine if in the early days of the automobile people decided not to try different technologies because they weren't the absolute best for their time period?

These are in my Imgur album, but I forget the provenance. A 1930s Plymouth/Chrylser (Pentastar) concept that almost made production. Imagine a rat rod version of this.

[oil pan 4]

The second generation EV1with larger batt had a NiMH battery with the same capacity as the nissan leaf, the motor HP and torque was comparable was the leaf, it had a 6.6kw charger which not even my leaf has but supposedly "battery technology wasn't there yet" plus people didn't want electric cars.

[Isaac Zackary]

The question is if the EV is:

1. Just an enthusiast's vehicle. The kind of vehicle that doesn't offer anything appealing to the general public, and will always cost a bit more than the competition although it may offer less even in "important" categories. This is similar to the diesel car. Sure, some people love them. But the general public doesn't care for them (at least in the USA) mainly for the higher initial price tag.
2. A partial competition. The kind of vehicle that ends up gaining more popularity than an enthusiast's vehicle, but doesn't really compete with others. Kind of like hybrids in the USA. Some people buy them because they just feel better about their purchase, whereas most other people don't care.
3. A fad vehicle.The kind of car people would in many ways be better off buying the competition, but that popularity has made them indispensable. Kind of like the SUV. An economist can point out how they are more expensive and cause more problems than they solve, but people buy them anyway just because they are cool.
4. A segmented vehicle. Kind of like how gasoline vehicles are popular in the private sector and diesel vehicles in the commercial sector. Maybe the electric vehicle will be the next car, SUV, pickup, minivan, etc., but not the next semi, bus, dump truck, crane, etc.
5. A true competition for the rest. The kind of vehicle that makes more sense to consumers and has a price point competitive enough that the masses make the change.
6. A combination of any of the above.

And by EV I mean ones that run on lithium ion batteries. There are several kinds of batteries. Maybe lithium ion is as good as it gets. But will that be enough to turn people over?