Small / economy car deathwatch: we've passed "peak econobox" again

[Piotrsko]

Nope my 23 year old 250 still tows 2,000 more per the data plate.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Almost all vehicles are trending this way. The Civic is massive compared to a 20 year old Accord.

Which shows how much of a value cars are today. Automakers have successfully held prices below the rate of inflation for decades while making them exponentially better.

A 1984 Honda Accord LX sedan had an 86 hp 1.8L 4 cylinder mated to a 4 speed auto. It averaged only 24 mpg. All this for $9,941 ($29,046 in 2023 dollars)

A 2024 Honda Civic LX has a 158 hp 2.0L 4 cylinder with a CVT. It is 17% larger than that 84 Accord. It averages 33 mpg and has all sorts of technology and safety features not even imagined on something like a 1984 Mercedes S-Class. All for the low price of $23,950.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

Which shows how much of a value cars are today. Automakers have successfully held prices below the rate of inflation for decades while making them exponentially better.

A 1994 Honda Accord LX sedan had an 86 hp 1.8L 4 cylinder mated to a 4 speed auto. It averaged only 24 mpg. All this for $9,941 ($29,046 in 2023 dollars)

A 2024 Honda Civic LX has a 158 hp 2.0L 4 cylinder with a CVT. It is 17% larger than that 84 Accord. It averages 33 mpg and has all sorts of technology and safety features not even imagined on something like a 1984 Mercedes S-Class. All for the low price of $23,950.

You mean 1984 Honda Accord, correct?

The only downfall is the loss of the cuteness factor (and the loss of the ability to park it in New York City).

Well, that and the fact that we may have more things to compete for our hard earned money these days. It's good to have a priority list.

[Bicycle Bob]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

You mean 1984 Honda Accord, correct?

The only downfall is the loss of the cuteness factor (and the loss of the ability to park it in New York City).

Well, that and the fact that we may have more things to compete for our hard earned money these days. It's good to have a priority list.

I still don't see cars as light as mine being made again, and I hear horror stories about service bills higher than my lifetime expenses for buying used cars. The fuel-saving technology is amazing, but I wonder if it saves the owner any money overall. All the news about making newer cars lighter seems to involve reduced durability and serviceability. "High-strength steel" means "If damaged, cut it out and weld in a new part - if it's worth it." People still want to drive tanks to feel safe, and spend fortunes to display their self image through vehicle choice.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

If tesla had no extra production capacity...... boggles the mind. Causes doomsday. Makes Elon more insufferable.

Have you had a look at the Austin Gigafactory? The addition on the South end is as be as other's whole factory. And even with the power substation and multi-story parking, they've only exploited a fraction of the whole site.

I still don't see cars as light as mine being made again, and I hear horror stories about service bills...

Paintless exoskeletons and 48V wiring with Ethernet offer some hope.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

You mean 1984 Honda Accord, correct?

The only downfall is the loss of the cuteness factor (and the loss of the ability to park it in New York City).

Well, that and the fact that we may have more things to compete for our hard earned money these days. It's good to have a priority list.

Yes, I'll fix that.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Paintless exoskeletons and 48V wiring with Ethernet offer some hope.

Unpainted stainless steel is incredibly expensive to get right during manufacturing and hard to keep looking good in day to day life. The problem is that with paint a small scratch can be fixed with a bit of touch-up paint and a buffing. With stainless a scratch has to be buffed out - but then you have to do the entire panel because you can't really just buff a small section because it will have a different level of shine than the rest.


48V accessories are more expensive than 12V accessories.

The Cybertruck does not have an exoskeleton. That was just Musk's fever dream years ago. It has huge internal casting that provides the support and holds the stainless panels that make up the body.

Below is what is under the bodywork. Large casting front and rear joined by a regular stamped and welded unibody in the middle. Damage either of those castings in a fender bender and the vehicle is totaled.

[Bicycle Bob]

And, we might add, when more sensible manufacturers want a flat metal panel, they add a few creases to it just to make it more self-supporting and lighter.

I do think there's potential for exo-skeletons in the Insect manner, not the bone-like roll cage around an American dirt-track sprint car. A standard monocoque is, of course, an exoskeleton, but I'd like to see it become much more resilient and tough. Controlled crumple zones are quite effective, but also rather disposable. I'd like minor impact damage to be only cosmetic.
I was quite impressed with one of the X-prize entries from, I think, Thailand. To improve on the safety of a scooter, they had retained the engine and drive wheel, but attached it to something like a styrofoam coffin. If we switched to a tougher foam, such as Divinycell or one even less rigid, and skinned it with Aramid, it could be like a full-body helmet. With that defining the primary structure, the other hardware can be added to hard points. It would come out a lot floppier than a traditional chassis, but flexibility can be worked with. I demonstrated a fully integrated frame and suspension in just six composite moldings. The Ford Model "T" was also quite soft, but used long suspension arms as a sort of moving sub-frame to provide the necessary rigidity to control the wheels.

[freebeard]

Paintless means lower embodied energy. Aircooled VWs show the value in patina.



Open wheels for safety in front/rear collisions.

I like the inwheel suspension Edison2 showed in the Xprize competition.

[Isaac Zachary]

Now I know someone will complain that I did this, but I used Edmund's 5 Year True Cost to Own (because, well I'm lazy) and looked at a lot of the 2023 manual transmission cars available in the USA (because it has to have a manual IMO). I was surprised what Edmund's had to say:

1. Nissan Versa $34,917 ($9,583 fuel)
2. Volkswagen Jetta $36,097 ($8,453 fuel)
3. Honda Civic $38,710 ($10,973 fuel)
4. Subaru Impreza $39,078 ($11,058 fuel)
5. MINI Hardtop Cooper Classic $40,438 ($24,923 fuel)
6. Kia Forte GT $41,816 ($11,058 fuel)
7. Mazda 3 Hatchback $42,895 ($9,583 fuel)
8. Volkswagen Golf GTI $46,628 ($10,655 fuel)
9. Toyota Corolla GR N/A (N/A fuel)
10. Acura Integra $50,528 ($11,335 fuel)
11. Subaru WRX $51,564 ($15,461 fuel)
12. Hyundai Elantra $51,804 ($13,603)

If Edmunds is correct, or at least my circumstances were near what Edmunds says, the Volkswagen Jetta would seem like the logical answer, because, well, it's a Volkswagen, and because it gets the best fuel mileage out of any manual transmission car in the USA.