So why do you think there are no cheap basic cars being sold new?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xist

Well, fifteen years of repairs may have totaled the MSRP of my Civic.

10 (12? I forget just how long I've had it) years of repairs on a 2000 Insight? About $200: 1 EGR valve, one wheel bearing, and a headlight bulb.

5 or 6 years on the '88 Toyota pickup? 1 alternator, maybe $50, and new front shocks (which are maybe a maintenance item).

[Xist]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

10 (12? I forget just how long I've had it) years of repairs on a 2000 Insight? About $200: 1 EGR valve, one wheel bearing, and a headlight bulb.

5 or 6 years on the '88 Toyota pickup? 1 alternator, maybe $50, and new front shocks (which are maybe a maintenance item).

The longest that I have had any car was the Prelude and I probably paid more per year in maintenance. I have had Bacon for three years, but drove it for half of that time, I am going to stop talking about that car now.

[H-Man]

I've spent around $400 a year on maintenance including new Michelin defenders.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by H-Man

I've spent around $400 a year on maintenance including new Michelin defenders.

I think you have to figure maintenance differently than repairs, though. Sure, I've done oil changes, put on new windshield wipers, brake pads, tires, and so on, but that's normal & expected for any car - unless you're the sort of person who buys a new car when the ash trays are full :-)

[H-Man]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

I think you have to figure maintenance differently than repairs, though. Sure, I've done oil changes, put on new windshield wipers, brake pads, tires, and so on, but that's normal & expected for any car - unless you're the sort of person who buys a new car when the ash trays are full :-)

Everything is a wear part.

[mcrews]

Labor costs (which includes benefits)are too high to build a cheap car. That is really the bottom line. That's what drove GM to 'bankruptcy'. And the problem really wasn't fixed.
"The Associated Press reported that, for example, the average United Auto Workers member makes $29.78 per hour at GM, while Toyota pays its workers (most of whom are non-union) about $30 per hour. However, when total benefits (including pensions and health care for workers, retirees and their spouses) is factored in, GM's total hourly labor costs is about $69, while Toyota's is about $48."
Benefits cost more than the hourly average rate of$29.

[The Other Andy]

I find it interesting that the discussion has been about manufacturers dumping a bunch of R&D money into developing some sort of brand new ultra-cheap car. I guess some have, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me due to the massive investment to overcome (although it overcomes the issue of updated safety requirements).

What I would think, especially for the USA, is you'd take the rental fleet (alternatively called the developing nation export) approach. Keep an old model on the market for as long as possible, and cut as much from it as you can. This could likely (in my head anyway) even be feasible with a larger car than would be possible with a brand new design, overcoming the issue Americans have with small cars.

Basically my vision for a super-cheap car is a Chevrolet "Classic."


If that were the case, I'd probably go with it. I'd expect such a vehicle to be better built and engineered than something originally designed to be bargain-basement.

Otherwise, if we're talking 'built from the ground-up to be cheap,' I'm not sure.

[niky]

At some point, you run into diminishing returns as to how much car you can make out of "x" amount of raw material, with the R&D already paid for. The Maruti Alto was the example I gave, because it is far, far, faaar past that point... Another car that's possibly there is the Nissan Versa. The Jetta is a likely candidate (simply for the stripping it gets in Mexico to meet the price point it hits in the US).

Hey, the Nissan Tsuru (Sentra to you folks... B13 to any Niss-o-philes on the board) is still on sale in Mexico. That's a car whose R&D were paid off way back in 1996 when it was retired everywhere else. Far as I can tell, it's about $2k less than the Versa.

But:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4h7l8DWyw8

And then consider it has less legroom than the Versa, poorer fuel economy and truly scary handling... that's pretty much as far down as you can go for a "normal" sized car.... actually, too far down... and it's still way too close to $10k for no discernible benefit over what's currently on offer near that price point. (Versa, Mirage - which also has more legroom... I used to drive a B13), etcetera)

[The Other Andy]

Originally Posted by niky

At some point, you run into diminishing returns as to how much car you can make out of "x" amount of raw material, with the R&D already paid for. The Maruti Alto was the example I gave, because it is far, far, faaar past that point... Another car that's possibly there is the Nissan Versa. The Jetta is a likely candidate (simply for the stripping it gets in Mexico to meet the price point it hits in the US).

Hey, the Nissan Tsuru (Sentra to you folks... B13 to any Niss-o-philes on the board) is still on sale in Mexico. That's a car whose R&D were paid off way back in 1996 when it was retired everywhere else. Far as I can tell, it's about $2k less than the Versa.

But:

And then consider it has less legroom than the Versa, poorer fuel economy and truly scary handling... that's pretty much as far down as you can go for a "normal" sized car.... actually, too far down... and it's still way too close to $10k for no discernible benefit over what's currently on offer near that price point. (Versa, Mirage - which also has more legroom... I used to drive a B13), etcetera)

Central and South America are a goldmine for this exact sort of thing, I love it. Although I'm guessing the Tsuru is one of the oldest examples.

The relatively high price is curious, but the unknown here is profit margin. I'd bet that it could go lower, but Nissan doesn't see a need to cut the price.

I also wasn't really thinking ancient, but simply keeping a generation or two previous going. The Malibu Classic was the best example I could think of; a new, worse looking Malibu came along and the old one changed its name and was stripped down to continue along for fleet sales. Chances are the R&D was paid off by that point, no need to go back a couple decades. And when the replacement model would get to the end of it's normal life, it could become the new cheapo car.

Actually, as you brought up the Jetta, the Volkswagen City Jetta is probably a pretty good example (perhaps a better example).

[order99]

I currently own a 1993 Ford Festiva-the Red Menace has never had AC, manual trans, no power anything, and I don't even think I've turned on the radio in months. It has no airbags, has been rear-ended twice and side-ended once-and in each case I have repaired the body with a dent puller and paint while the opposing vehicles ended up with a tow and a 'Totaled' status...I would buy another barebones like it in a heartbeat and average 45-50 MPG unmodified...but I cannot buy a new one.

That VW Squareback sedan in the photo above? I had one-a 1971 model somebody had painted with Neon Orange paint and a BRUSH! Despite the 3-speed automatic my Daygo Avenger averaged 35-40 MPG without trying after a Slick 50 treatment( I don't recommend this in modern cars but the VW had a wire stainer instead of an oil filter...). I will never be able to buy a new one.

During the late 1990's I purchased a 1979 Dodge Colt for $500. I expected a piece of junk that I could wrench into shape-instead I got a lovely 4 Speed manual RWD with an unkillable 1st-gen Mistsubishi engine, a hatchback that made me wonder if a Timelord had designed it and 40-45 MPG due to low stance and decent aero. When I left Tennessee I sold the car to an associate for $1100 and she thought it an absolute bargain. I will never be able to buy a new one.

I would jump on a brand-new $5000 barebones car in a heartbeat IF it was built sturdily enough-but Labor costs will never allow it as others have mentioned. SO, here's my backup plan...

Step One-scrape together enough cash to OH LOOK IT IS A FLYING PIG SHOOTING RAINBOWS...sigh.

Okay, assuming I ever get Step One off the ground-

(OINK)

Step Two-start with Jory Squibb's Moonbeam as inspiration:

jory squibb

-but find a wrecked Smart Car with a salvageable front axle and transmission, marry it to a reinforced T-shape with an unpowered rear...lower the seating and build a sturdy, light fairing, aiming for a one person vehicle with a removable or fold-down passenger seat behind. The resulting vehicle would have a more narrow stance and even better MPG than the Moonbeam, FWD for better handling, room for 4 bags of groceries and would be classified as a motorcycle which cuts so much Red Tape. The Mercedes motor would likely be more than the Trike needs so I would be looking for a downgrade-a British or German 300CC Diesel motorbike engine if I could get one...just imagine the MPG...

(OINK!!!)

Oh shut up and let me dream, Flying Pig....