Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-06-2018, 08:26 AM   #1 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Question Solar HHO

I know you guys are probably sick to death of HHO. From my understanding, they can't actually increase mpg because the power needed to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen is more than what the extra hydrogen/oxygen intake into the engine would produce.

There is no doubt adding it to combustion would give more power / mpg however.

My idea is to have about 50-100w of solar on the roof of the car (slimline flexi panels) and use their power to generate HHO, which is then drawn into the intake for combustion. That way there is no extra load on the engine.

Downsides are that this would only work during the day in sunlight.

This would be going on an old diesel, which wouldn't just add extra fuel to compensate like a modern EFI engine would.

My only thought is that would the power gain be better from the HHO intake, or just to charge the cars battery and lessen the load on the alternator.

Thoughts?

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 07-06-2018, 08:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 10,551

CM400E - '81 Honda CM400E
90 day: 39.62 mpg (US)

Daox's Grey Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 49.53 mpg (US)

Daox's Insight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 64.33 mpg (US)

Swarthy - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage DE
90 day: 41.67 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,976
Thanked 2,111 Times in 1,291 Posts
You'd be better off using that solar to charge your battery and deleting your alternator.

To make a long and complicated story short, hydrogen can work to speed up combustion which can improve efficiency. But, in order to see any real gain the engine must be tuned to burn lean (which slows down combustion). Unless you are willing to totally reprogram your fuel computer, its not worth it.
__________________
Current project: Heating the manual trans with engine coolant
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Daox For This Useful Post:
oil pan 4 (07-06-2018)
Old 07-06-2018, 09:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daox View Post
You'd be better off using that solar to charge your battery and deleting your alternator.

To make a long and complicated story short, hydrogen can work to speed up combustion which can improve efficiency. But, in order to see any real gain the engine must be tuned to burn lean (which slows down combustion). Unless you are willing to totally reprogram your fuel computer, its not worth it.

This would be going on an old diesel, which wouldn't just add extra fuel to compensate like a modern EFI engine would.

So this would just increase the efficiency of the current amount of fuel as there is no computer, purely mechanical injection pump.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 09:38 AM   #4 (permalink)
Duck duck duck
 
RedDevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Nieuwegein, the Netherlands
Posts: 2,452

Red Devil - '11 Honda Insight Elegance
Team Honda
90 day: 58.19 mpg (US)

It - '09 Hyundai I10 Active Cool
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.71 mpg (US)
Thanks: 887
Thanked 1,010 Times in 657 Posts
The best way to integrate solar panels and cars is to put those panels on your house and use the money saved on your electricity bill to buy gas. Or diesel.

A small panel to keep the 12V battery charged is fine though, ahem.
__________________
2011 Honda Insight + HID, LEDs, tiny PV panel, extra brake pad return springs, neutral wheel alignment, 44/42 PSI (air), PHEV light (inop), tightened wheel nut.
lifetime FE over 0.12 Gm or 0.08 MM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 10:10 AM   #5 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,223

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,413
Thanked 3,050 Times in 1,943 Posts
With 50-100w of solar on the roof the engine will see less than 50-100w of assistance, which is kind of like spitting in the ocean.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Frank Lee For This Useful Post:
Ecky (07-06-2018), samwichse (07-06-2018)
Old 07-06-2018, 11:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 2,519

Gaptooth - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 64.5 mpg (US)

Such Fit - '07 Honda Fit Sport
90 day: 41.27 mpg (US)

Velomobile - '13 Sun Seeker EZ-TAD SX
Last 3: 2142.86 mpg (US)
Thanks: 849
Thanked 960 Times in 612 Posts
As others have said, it's far more useful to reduce alternator load. And, even then, the amount of fuel economy gained will be nearly negligible - though farther from zero than HHO.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 04:02 PM   #7 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 570
Thanks: 32
Thanked 52 Times in 39 Posts
I say go for it!

After you have the setup producing H2 and O2 you can measure the increase in FE.

When you see it not changed much, you can hookup the panel to your battery.

As you say, it is an old diesel with not much load on the alternator. So you could delete the alternator and see some gains (up to %10 as reported by some on this site).
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 06:43 PM   #8 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,791

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 31.25 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 79.06 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 29.02 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,459
Thanked 1,164 Times in 792 Posts
Solar panels are somewhere around 20% efficient under optimal conditions (directly facing sun, at noon, on a cloudless day, not behind glass). The process of decomposing water into hydrogen is something like 33% efficient. That alone makes your 100W panel output only 33W equivalent power in hydrogen. Let's say the combustion process is 25% efficient at extracting heat energy (combustion) and making kinetic energy. That means 8.25W of power provided by the 100W solar panel, or about 1% of 1 horsepower.

You may as well attach a hamster wheel to the crank, or add half a PSI to all 4 tires.

Efficiency means making as few conversions of energy as possible. If you're capturing sunlight and turning it into electrical power, keep it as electrical power to maximize efficiency rather than subjecting it to these conversion losses:

sunlight > electricity > hydrogen (chemical energy) > heat > kinetic

Exploiting energy in a Rube Goldberg way is not efficient, just as his contraptions for flipping a switch are not efficient.

__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!

Last edited by redpoint5; 07-06-2018 at 07:08 PM..
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to redpoint5 For This Useful Post:
Ecky (07-07-2018)
Old 07-06-2018, 07:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 5,665

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Shocker - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 130.42 mpg (US)
Thanks: 129
Thanked 1,402 Times in 1,037 Posts
Yes use solar to do an alternator delete. Which has been proven repeatedly to give a 5% to 10% fuel economy boost.
Where hho has been repeatedly proven to give about a 0% improvement.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white 240v evse mod, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 07:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
Duck duck duck
 
RedDevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Nieuwegein, the Netherlands
Posts: 2,452

Red Devil - '11 Honda Insight Elegance
Team Honda
90 day: 58.19 mpg (US)

It - '09 Hyundai I10 Active Cool
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.71 mpg (US)
Thanks: 887
Thanked 1,010 Times in 657 Posts
FWIW, a solar panel can only reach ROI within its lifetime when oriented well and used all the time.
A panel charging a battery in the car would not be oriented optimally, maybe the car would be parked in the shade from time to time as well, the battery and converter etc. add cost to the system - but the revenue is better as it replaces electricity generated by the alternator, which is more 'expensive' than grid power.

If you run the panel to directly generate Brown's gas you either only use it when the car runs or, if run permanently you'd store the gas in some balloon or container. While the former is just inefficient, the latter is downright dangerous.

*** Do not store more than a quart of Brown's gas in any location or you might ruin the car and possibly kill someone if it goes bang. ***

__________________
2011 Honda Insight + HID, LEDs, tiny PV panel, extra brake pad return springs, neutral wheel alignment, 44/42 PSI (air), PHEV light (inop), tightened wheel nut.
lifetime FE over 0.12 Gm or 0.08 MM.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com