Some off-topic bickering split from the 'Peak Econobox' thread

[redpoint5]

One idea I like is insurance offering a cash incentive to not undergo costly procedures and care when the outlook is poor. For instance, hardly anyone makes a healthy recovery after being supported on breathing machines and feeding tubes. If we're not paying though, we might be inclined to accept such last ditch efforts to clutch to life. Offer an incentive, and I might rather leave an inheritance and unburden my family, medical system, and community.

[Xist]

Does anyone want to discuss Medicare for All? Bernie recently said that the top 0.1% would pay for it, but I cannot find any numbers for how much income they average, just their wealth. Whatever DQYDJ.com is, they say the average 0.1% individual is worth $43,090,281. They also say there were 126.0 million households in the United States in 2017, so the top 0.1% is 126,000 families. https://dqydj.com/net-worth-brackets...ts-one-percent

$43,090,281 x 126,000 = $5.43 trillion.

How much would Medicare-for-all cost? Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez both cited a study from George Mason University saying:

[T]he bill "would, under conservative estimates, increase federal budget commitments by approximately $32.6 trillion during its first 10 years of full implementation.” According to the paper, even doubling all “currently projected federal individual and corporate income tax collections would be insufficient to finance the added federal costs of the plan.”

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/08/th...icare-for-all/

I do not know how you would seize the assets of millionaires and billionaires, but 100% of it would cover 16.65%

According to that DQYDJ.com page, the top 10% are worth on average $1,182,390.36. That would be 12,600,000 families, worth a total of almost 15 trillion.

That is still less than half what would need to cover it for ten years.

The net worth of the richest 90%, according to DQYDJ.com totals just under $29 trillion, so how in the world would you finance it when it costs more than every American is worth?

The bottom 10% have a negative net worth, so I excluded them.

Elizabeth Warren also promotes Medicare for All.

Warren would put a 2 percent tax on every dollar of net worth above $50 million and a 3 percent tax on every dollar of net worth above $1 billion.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...uch-bottom-90/

If 100% of the top 90% would be insufficient, 2-3% of the top 10-11% would be wholly inadequate.

The problem is that Medicare only pays 60% as much as insurance. Hospitals do not profit from Medicare, they lose money. They profit off of insurance, which may be charging too much, but 40% extra for all services?

“You don’t need insurance companies for Medicare for all,” Dr. Gaffney added. “You need hospitals.”

"The majority of hospitals are nonprofit or government-owned."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/21/h...hospitals.html

[litesong]

Originally Posted by Xist

Bernie recently said that the top 0.1% would pay for it.....

Hope Bernie's medical episode is just that, & not something desperately serious.

Anyhow, ya don't have ta worry about the rich paying for all the medical. Once re-pubic-lick-uns twist the legislation, it'll protect re-pubic-lick-uns, & 100% of the costs will be paid by 100% of the poor.

[redpoint5]

The problem of how you capture the money is exactly the issue. Even if the top 0.01% could cover the expense, and you could somehow pass legislation to single them out as responsible for the health of other people, it wouldn't work.

Imagine you live in the US, you have phenomenal wealth, and as such, mobility. A law passes that says most of it is being seized to pay for x... you move somewhere else.

I watched a good documentary called the Brain of Bill. It touched on the anti-trust lawsuit he initially lost. I'd have simply moved my operations to another country to spite clueless officials, removing the tax income they were receiving and loosing employment (explain that one to your constituents)... it's among my worst traits; that when people unjustly hit me where it hurts most, I want them to pay 10x.

Anyone saying we'll get the wealthy to pay for something sounds exactly like we're building a wall and Mexico is paying for it. No you aren't, because they aren't going to go along with that idea.

As a tangent, I'd probably lower corporate taxes to zero, or very near to it. Economists agree that the net benefits of low corporate taxes are very good. You see, corporations never pay taxes anyhow, because their only revenue is from consumer spending. An increase in corporate taxes is an increase in the cost of consumer goods and services. Then, US goods and services become costly compared to other countries, and so our products fall out of consumer favor as we purchase ones that are taxed at a lower rate.

[roosterk0031]

Ran the numbers a few days ago, 1 trillion dollars is about $6100 for every working American. If free health care cost over 3 trillion dollars a year, that's $18,300 for me and $18,300 for my wife and that has to be on top of what they are already getting from us.

Like Xist said take everything the extreme rich has and it's gone and still not enough.

All for 0% corporate taxes.

[Xist]

Bernie always complains that Amazon did not pay taxes.

In 2018, Amazon paid $0 in U.S. federal income tax on more than $11 billion in profits before taxes. It also received a $129 million tax rebate from the federal government. Amazon’s low tax bill mainly stemmed from the Republican tax cuts of 2017, carryforward losses from years when the company was not profitable, tax credits for massive investments in R&D and stock-based employee compensation, CNBC previously reported.
In 2018, Walmart paid more than $3.2 billion in U.S. federal corporate income taxes.

"How about paying your taxes?"—Walmart responds to Amazon’s challenge over pay

Then there is this: Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren wants to raise $1 trillion in revenue with a new 7% tax on corporate profits over $100 million

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Xist

Bernie always complains that Amazon did not pay taxes.

"How about paying your taxes?"—Walmart responds to Amazon’s challenge over pay

Then there is this: Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren wants to raise $1 trillion in revenue with a new 7% tax on corporate profits over $100 million

Either Bernie doesn't understand economics, or he understands and wishes for less prosperity for all. To some people, equality of outcome is more important than individuals being better off as a whole across the spectrum of wealth.

Looks like Warren wants corporations to set up shop elsewhere. No tax revenue is better than some in her estimation. Not bad enough that manufacturing went abroad, but we need to send the corporations themselves too.

Lets skip a few steps and just hand over the keys to the country to China.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by litesong

Hope Bernie's medical episode is just that, & not something desperately serious.

From r/The_Donald: "So Let Me Get This Straight.....BERNIE SANDERS Experienced Chest Pains, Received A Detailed Medical Evaluation That Discovered A Blockage AND Had Life-Saving Surgery.....All Within 24 Hours? GOD BLESS AMERICA!! [u/TheRealGrantEdwards]


https://imgur.com/bFyH40l

[Xist]

Should we support Sanders or Bezos?

Because, in a fight over who should allocate American capital, bet against the guy who conjured $1 trillion out of a business plan that his wife at the time wrote in a car. And bet on the socialist crank who knew the proper price of every asset in America, all this time, and how to run Wall Street, insurance and health care (plus real estate), yet didn’t make a million until age 75 and is defensive about it.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wh...res-2019-09-27

[freebeard]

Bezos has Blue Origin, Sanders doesn't have anything comparable.