Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-26-2008, 04:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 405
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Gone4
Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel_john View Post
I think you may end up quoting miles per dollar to compare with any energy source because the power plant is burning some fuel at probably only 30 to 40% efficiency by the time it get to the battery. So we might want to stay away from any miles per gallon or miles per watt numbers. Evenually miles per unit of energy from any source will be similiar i suppose but until then miles per dollar is about as fair as you could get. Even windmills and pv panels cost dollars. What do you think about this approach?
How do we add enviromental costs to this?
It's quite hard to do that considering the power source varies from place to place. The gas I use versus what they use in down south isn't even the same right now, and ergo has a different amount of energy. Realistically it will vary from station to station based on the amount of ethanol added too. And how would you treat sources such as the captured methane from cow's feces that Vermonter's buy and would otherwise cause more environmental harm? I guess we would get infinite values since it's reducing methane which is many times worse than CO2.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 02-26-2008, 04:59 PM   #22 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,513

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 60.16 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,058
Thanked 6,957 Times in 3,602 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel_john View Post
I think you may end up quoting miles per dollar to compare with any energy source because the power plant is burning some fuel at probably only 30 to 40% efficiency by the time it get to the battery.
"Only?" Even at only 30 to 40% efficiency at the power plant, electric drive is far more efficient than internal combustion.

Quote:
until then miles per dollar is about as fair as you could get.
That's problematic. Don't forget: some people will pay more for efficiency; the bottom line isn't always cost.

On top of that, people pay anywhere from 5 or 6 cents all the way up to 20+ cents per kWh for electricity, so quoting a MP$ figure for electric falls apart there. The price of fossil fuel doesn't see the same kind of spread across the country (some, but not that much).
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 10:07 PM   #23 (permalink)
MP$
 
diesel_john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 595
Thanks: 5
Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts
Send a message via MSN to diesel_john
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
"Only?" Even at only 30 to 40% efficiency at the power plant, electric drive is far more efficient than internal combustion.

That's problematic. Don't forget: some people will pay more for efficiency; the bottom line isn't always cost.
On top of that, people pay anywhere from 5 or 6 cents all the way up to 20+ cents per kWh for electricity, so quoting a MP$ figure for electric falls apart there. The price of fossil fuel doesn't see the same kind of spread across the country (some, but not that much).
I bought a windmill which will take 7 years to pay for itself, just to save from buying 17,500 kw-hrs @ $0.10 over that time. That's the cost I'll pay.

I was just looking at the bigger picture, it's good that electric cars fit the job in a lot of places. But for the sake of comparison the dollar is fairly consistent over the US at least. That's how i will know what some people will pay for efficiency.
If i say my energy cost is 16 miles per $. Then everyone can compare their cost in their location.

Would it be easier to quote miles per kw-hr, rather than trying to figure out how many gallons the power plant had to burn?

Since this post is about an efficiency test of an electric vehicle, I don't know how to convert that to other energy sources for the purpose of comparison.

Last edited by diesel_john; 02-26-2008 at 10:49 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2008, 05:58 AM   #24 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 404
Thanks: 35
Thanked 143 Times in 105 Posts
Here is a link to energy unit conversions.
http://www.cogeneration.net/FuelAndE...quivalence.htm

There are many of them out there.
JJ
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2008, 11:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
MP$
 
diesel_john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 595
Thanks: 5
Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts
Send a message via MSN to diesel_john
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackstone View Post
Here is a link to energy unit conversions.
http://www.cogeneration.net/FuelAndE...quivalence.htm

There are many of them out there.
JJ
I am hinting that to get gallons, i would need to know the efficiency of the power plant and transmission to the battery.
311 watt-hrs / mile i understand.
At my electricity cost that would about 32 miles per $.
In contrast to my car at 16 miles/ $.

Last edited by diesel_john; 02-28-2008 at 10:47 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2008, 08:36 AM   #26 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,513

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 60.16 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,058
Thanked 6,957 Times in 3,602 Posts
Ah, now I see what you're getting at. You're opening that can of worms.

EPA doesn't use power plant or efficiency of transmission to determine MPG equivalent of electrics. It uses power usage from the wall (which factors in charger in/efficiency).

If we're going to force electrics to factor in power plant to wheels, then to be fair we must also change the way we measure fossil/liquid fueled vehicles, ie. factor in energy use in refining and/or transportation of the fuel to the pump.

I think it's best to stick with the way the EPA does it.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2008, 11:06 AM   #27 (permalink)
MP$
 
diesel_john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 595
Thanks: 5
Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts
Send a message via MSN to diesel_john
Thumbs up

It would take a team of scientists to calculate the cradle to grave path for a drop of energy. By cost i didn't mean that was the only cost. (e.g. enviromental) i just thought converting to currency would make it easier to compare the direct economic forces. Economics tends to influence the direction unless the feds intervene forcefully. That means we need pioneers like the ecomodders all the more.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2008, 01:00 AM   #28 (permalink)
Ford Escort 2.0
 
TomEV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alameda, CA
Posts: 240

Electricar - '89 Ford Escort LX Hatchback
Thanks: 6
Thanked 27 Times in 24 Posts
Question MPG vs Watt Hours / Mile

While this thread is a bit dusty, I typically use the dollar/gallon VS btu/kWh because people always ask one of two questions -

How many MPG does it get?

How much does it cost to run?

Unfortunately, most people aren't familiar with btu's or kilowatts.

If you equate MPG based on what it costs to fuel an IC car, VS the price of electricity, than I use the present cost of gasoline (today it is $4.56 / gallon for regular) and the present cost for electricity to charge my EV (6.5 cents / kWh - 80 % geothermal here, balance is other renewables plus natural gas peaker plants).

Using the numbers above, the 'fuel' cost per mile to operate my Citicar is 1.625 cents a mile at 250 watts hours/mile.

It gets about 280 MPG when comparing today's gasoline cost. But as stated, this is a moving target, and has the effect of making electric cars appear more 'efficient' every time the price of gas goes up.

Using the BTU information, it gets 134 MPG. Seems to me that 134 MPG is rather understated... Feels like my 'MPG' is much more than that as the cost per mile is almost nothing.

IMHO it seems that the best way to keep records is watt hours/mile since price is a moving target, but MPG based on the current price of gas is more accessible to the unwashed. Is the standard here to use BTU equivalents?
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2008, 02:14 AM   #29 (permalink)
Veggiedynamics
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alexandria, MN
Posts: 684

Volt12 - '12 Chevy Volt base
Thanks: 0
Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts
easiest way it to calculate the amount of energy in a gallon of gas , then go by that for your electric usage.. as for the efficiency of the electric plant.. hard to tell unless you ask them and they tell you, usually they're more efficient than a IC engine by a long shot.
__________________

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2008, 08:30 AM   #30 (permalink)
EV test pilot
 
bennelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oconomowoc, WI, USA
Posts: 4,435

Electric Cycle - '81 Kawasaki KZ440
90 day: 334.6 mpg (US)

S10 - '95 Chevy S10
90 day: 30.48 mpg (US)

Electro-Metro - '96 Ben Nelson's "Electro-Metro"
90 day: 129.81 mpg (US)

The Wife's Car - Plug-in Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
90 day: 78.16 mpg (US)
Thanks: 17
Thanked 663 Times in 388 Posts
I have been doing my electric motorcycle fuel economy based on converting both gasoline and KWh into BTUs.

Electricity is measured from the wall, which takes charger efficiency into account - which is good, it encourages people to use an efficient charger.

My cost per mile is right about at 1 cent, so figuring economy based on price of gas is real easy - just move the decimal point in the gas prices over two places.

I usually state my economy based on the electric to BTU conversion as stated in MPG - right around 300 MPG. Then I say that "but based on the COST of gasoline, it gets the equivelent of..."

I also mention how electricity can be made from solar, wind, etc. while gasoline cannot.


There really doesn't seem to be any good standard to stating "gas mileage" of an EV to the masses. Watt-hour per mile is good to use for electric vehicle folks, but I think it is worth it to convert to MPG for everyone else.

__________________


300mpg.org Learn how to BUILD YOUR OWN ELECTRIC CAR CHEAP
My YouTube Videos
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine efficiency improvement through higher temp thermostat? Lazarus General Efficiency Discussion 23 09-16-2015 02:27 AM
How my home-built bicycle trailer lowers my MPG MetroMPG Alternative Transportation 17 03-30-2012 07:15 PM
First ride on a (semi-)recumbent bicycle: BikeE - got a CCM Evox 120 MetroMPG Alternative Transportation 20 11-14-2011 08:29 AM
Equivalent MPG of cycling - garage feature? MetroMPG Alternative Transportation 21 12-27-2007 01:57 AM
Forkenswift equivalent MPG Lazarus Fossil Fuel Free 6 12-13-2007 11:11 PM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com