Test: Alternator vs. no alternator = 10% MPG gain @ 70 km/h

[orange4boy]

Originally Posted by justme1969

Effect: Routine deep cycle charging cause death of batt and nearly left me at stop light 1x

All the doohickies we pay for have a best case purpose not purfect for eco modding but turning a switch on and off 50 times in 20 miles sucks in my opinion. just be glad for our solid state electronics.

You should only use deep cycle batteries for an alternator delete. Normal car batteries will die very quickly under deep cycle conditions and have a much lower capacity. Don't let them go below 11.5V under load. Two would be better for longer commutes. Charge them separately with good quality automatic chargers so they do not become unbalanced. With this set up you will not have to switch on your alternator at all.

If your electric fans come on too much leave a hole in your air dam. It's better than the electrical losses from fans which draw a lot of current.

Keep it simple. All this alternator switching on and off to get a tiny amount of charging is pretty futile.

So during the drive the alternator kicks in and out much like an air conditioner compressor, cycling the battery.

You could then replace the starter battery with a deep cycle one and have an alternator which automatically disconnects from the engine when you are driving and when it is safe to run from battery power while driving.

This should give you a 40-50 mile range on a deep cycle battery with the huge bonus of 10% fuel efficiency savings and the peace of mind of a system you don't have to worry about constantly.

Whoa there cowboy. If you think that draining a deep cycle and then recharging it during your drive is efficient you need to check your calculations. This could only work if you have two batteries. One that you drive until it's discharged and one that you switch to when the other is discharged. Charging you battery while driving is incredibly inefficient. You saved 10% discharging and now charging, you will be adding 30% and possibly much more.

[2009Toyotoad]

I don't know why this thread seems to have gotten my interest but it has. I like anyone else would love to do away with the parasitic loses from the alternator, or power steering pump(if my steering wasn't electric assisted) or anything else on the accessory belt that was creating a power loss. However, traffic is unavoidable, delays from accidents/incidents/ weather are all unavoidable. So I think in the end the solution is to reduce rather than remove parasitic power losses. To that end why not go with the solution Hot Rods have use successfully for decades. Under drive pulleys and undersized alternators and pumps. It certainly reduces the need to reconfigure belt drive sizes, idler pulley locations etc.

[superrick]

Originally Posted by RacerX

That's Ironic that you started this thread up. I've been reading your tests and have been thinking about it for a while now. Just this past Sunday this is what I did. I'm doing this in preparation for some wild ideas I have.....Anyway. I cut that battery cable going to the altenator. My plan was to use a plain old bosch relay and throw a toggle in on the dash. But when I flipped the fuse cover and saw that massive 70amp fuse in there I instantly decided to use a Continous Duty Solenoid. Like a Ford starter solenoid. Well I wired it up and it works great. It makes a big difference at idle. I can't really tell at 55 mph....I don't see a difference on the vacuum gauge or tach. If I get a chance this weekend I'll post some pics on this thread.

Question: What do you think the % gain mpg wise would be If the Altenator was to be driven off of the right rear wheel?

Has anyone ever made an altenator spin just from air/wind speed?

I think the starter solenoid may be over kill you can get a 70 amp relay to do the job, smaller, cheeper, lighter, less amp draw. also I have done some experimenting with turning a permanent magnet alternator with wind force. why not use that wind pushing on the front of your car to do some good. se on youtube forever car.

[oil pan 4]

The most I was ever able to get out of a rare earth perminant magnet alternator wind turbine in very windy newmexico was up to 150 watts with a 1 meter diameter blade in gale force wind.

[orange4boy]

why not use that wind pushing on the front of your car to do some good.

Why not indeed. Because science. You can not gain energy by increasing the drag on your vehicle with a fan. The drag will exceed the energy produced and result in a net loss. The law of conservation of energy As the kids used to say: Reality bites.

The only scenario in which a fan would work is if you used it as an air brake that deployed only when slowing the vehicle. In that case you might as well be using an electric motor driven by the wheels. Hard to implement in any event.

As for driving your alt off the rear wheel, your engine is already providing the energy to drive that wheel. There is no free energy. Using the alt to regen during braking is one way to scavenge energy that would be lost to heat.

[superrick]

something wasn't right, my permanent magnet alt puts out 1500 watts. of course you have to keep it cool and it has to be turning at the right speed. I don't see any wind generators that can turn a alternator fast enough when the blades are connected directly to the shaft. you need about 3000 rpm and the only way to get that is by gearing up. you have to collect as much surface area wind as possible and use it's torque so you can gear it up to higher speeds. try standing in the back of a truck going 50 mph and then quickly hold up a 4x8 sheet of plywood in front of you.
Remember I stated that the wind force is already pushing against the front the car. take a semi truck for instance, those who do not have the curved wind screen helping to channel the wind force pushing against the front of the truck body are getting the full force of the wind just like holding up a 4x8 sheet of plywood. so lets say maybe there hundreds of pounds of force pushing against that area of your truck. And then you place in front of that area a fan generator, is there more force pushing against your truck now than before? the wind is going to slow you down anyway so why not put that force which is already slowing you down to work. sure its still slowing you down but now your getting something in return. Electricity that can be used for something, delete the alternator or make HHO so you are not increasing the drag on your vehicle so much, but instead you are simply using the force which is already putting a drag on your vehicle to do some work.

[orange4boy]

And then you place in front of that area a fan generator, is there more force pushing against your truck now than before?

Unfortunately, yes.

A wind turbine creates a lot of drag. They are basically air brakes. The job of a wind turbine is to turn the mechanical energy of air movement into electrical energy. In order to do that it requires a lot of surface area and it has to create a lot of lift or pressure differential which means it creates a lot of drag. The relatively low efficiency of the blades coupled with the low efficiency of an electric motor means a whole lot of energy is lost to drag and heat and that's before it passes the bodywork of the car. If you have ever flown a plane with a variable pitch prop you can immediately feel the huge differences between a free wheeling prop (very high drag), a stalled prop (much lower drag) and a feathered prop (low drag). And remember, this is after you have inefficiently converted energy from fuel to motion already and now you want to change it back again with added inefficiencies.



Then, because the air still flows around the body following flow lines, it does not act like some kind of fairing. The disturbed air flows around the vehicle just like it would have without the turbine, acting on it and creating the same drag as before but now you have to add the drag of the turbine.

The upshot is that a turbine would increase your CD a lot.

Welcome to the forum!

[superrick]

Originally Posted by orange4boy

Unfortunately, yes.

A wind turbine creates a lot of drag. They are basically air brakes. The job of a wind turbine is to turn the mechanical energy of air movement into electrical energy. In order to do that it requires a lot of surface area and it has to create a lot of lift or pressure differential which means it creates a lot of drag. The relatively low efficiency of the blades coupled with the low efficiency of an electric motor means a whole lot of energy is lost to drag and heat and that's before it passes the bodywork of the car. If you have ever flown a plane with a variable pitch prop you can immediately feel the huge differences between a free wheeling prop (very high drag), a stalled prop (much lower drag) and a feathered prop (low drag). And remember, this is after you have inefficiently converted energy from fuel to motion already and now you want to change it back again with added inefficiencies.



Then, because the air still flows around the body following flow lines, it does not act like some kind of fairing. The disturbed air flows around the vehicle just like it would have without the turbine, acting on it and creating the same drag as before but now you have to add the drag of the turbine.

The upshot is that a turbine would increase your CD a lot.

Welcome to the forum!

you say yes but do we know that as a fact? I have some doubt about that. lets stay with the semi truck and think about this. flat surface above the cab maybe 4x8. wind hitting it at 50 mph, because its flat you are pushing the air and getting maximum force against the area as the excess is having to push around the sides and top. then you put lets say two 4x4 blades in front of that area. and think about this, weather your moving and pushing the air or the wind is blowing and pushing against you, would there not be the same force? so would not the wind a head of the fan blades be slowing down the wind? and the area behind the fan blades would have to be getting less wind force? sure there will be wind getting through the blades it has to do that for the blades to spin. but what happens to the wind after it gets through the blades? does it get redirected some how a little, I am not sure myself just what happens but I can do a quick test by blowing air into a fan and checking out whats happening behind the blades. I don't think you are going to feel the same wind force that is blowing in front of the blades. if you could you could just keep putting more fan blades behind each other and harvest the same force again. it would be more reasonable to believe that if lets say some how you fan blades could cover the whole 4x8 and you added the force getting by and through the blades you would think they would equal the force of the same wind hitting the 4x8 flat surface. or some where close.
sure the spinning prop idea has more drag because its spinning fast and acting more like a flat surface stopping the wind in an area the size of the circle it makes. effectively blocking the wind for the most part while redirecting it. if it is absorbing most of the energy of the wind then there cannot be much energy left on the other side. and what energy there is if you add that to the energy the fan converted into rotation you should get close to the same energy that would be pushing against the 4x8 flat surface. I believe you would be incorrect in believing that the disturbed air passing through the fan would have the same drag as without the fan. In fact I know that would not be true and could easily test that. so the air pushing on that area already and slowing you down I believe we can still use it to do work since you cant stop that force from slowing you down whether its pushing against a flat surface or pushing against a spinning prop. and if my theory is correct you would have converted part of a force slowing you down into useful energy you could use to delete your alternator or maybe make some HHO to feed into you diesel intake. I will be doing some test.

[oil pan 4]

If you really want to increase fuel economy forget about the HHO and install a turbocharger.
Turbochargers added to diesel engines tend to see 10% and up to a 20% boost in fuel economy.
HHO boost in fuel economy appears to be immeasurable or imagined if not negative.

[California98Civic]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

If you really want to increase fuel economy forget about the HHO and install a turbocharger.
Turbochargers added to diesel engines tend to see 10% and up to a 20% boost in fuel economy.
HHO boost in fuel economy appears to be immeasurable or imagined if not negative.

But turbos offer that benefit only when you reduce the size of the engine so that a 2.0L can produce the power of the 2.5L--or a 1.0L the work of a 1.6L. Add a turbo to the engine you currently have and you'll probably consumer more fuel, not less, no?