Thank you

[freebeard]

And it further becomes invalid when you have people who religiously believe what that person says, again irrespective of any evidence that shows what he is saying is incorrect. For them, if he says night = day then, obviously, it is.

When you have someone that deluded - and so many followers of the delusions - then normal rules of engagement become quite invalid.

It's one thing to focus on one individual, but when you extrapolate to 'so many followers' that changes the flavor of you argumentation. How many is so many? How many argued against the misapplication of The Template?

Do you even see the misapplication as a container for people and cargo? Can you name the closest approximation in the real world?

[Isaac Zachary]

Most arguments on forums are from people who agree on 99% of what they're arguing about. And a small percentage of those arguments are about the 1% that they don't agree on. The rest of the arguments are about misundernstandings.

I highly doubt that Julian truely believes that the template is a complete delusional waste of time. Could it be better? Sure. But does that mean that someone who tries to impliment it is going to get worse fuelmileage, will have kidney failure, will cause the stock market to collapse and cause our Sun to implode?

This is like trying to attack Newtonian physics even though Einstein proved that Newtonian physics don't actually work.

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by Yippeekyaa

It is you Julian. You announced your departure from this forum a couple days ago by stating “ So unless there is a dramatic change here, goodbye. It will certainly save me many hours of thinking and typing!” Yet here you are still thinking and typing. A bit childish indeed. You are now exhibiting a textbook case of narcissistic personality disorder. Taken directly from the Mayo Clinic page on the subject:

“ Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people”
Example: you frequently mention others in the field of aerodynamics that you communicate with that validate your claims, yet those of us here on this forum are “a pox on advancement “
“ Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior”
Can easily site and quote multiple examples of you doing exactly that.
“ React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior”
Example:
“ I object - and object strongly”
“ I get very cross when…”
“ I will start a war”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20366662

Take care Julian.

Mmm, I don't think your diagnosis fits very well with what I have also written in this thread:

I don't actually consider myself to be "a know-it-all"- in fact I am well aware of how little I know.

That's why in lots of threads I say nothing - I know how little I know. I contribute only to threads where I am fairly confident I know something.

If only others here did the same!

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I highly doubt that Julian truely believes that the template is a complete delusional waste of time. Could it be better? Sure. But does that mean that someone who tries to impliment it is going to get worse fuelmileage, will have kidney failure, will cause the stock market to collapse and cause our Sun to implode?

[GROAN!]

Yes, The Template is a completely delusional waste of time!!

The whole concept of taking a predetermined shape (any predetermined shape) and applying it to guide the shape of extensions to cars, to guide the heights of spoilers, to assess the 'aerodynamic purity' of shapes, to determine where there will be attached and separated flow etc, etc is absolute and complete rubbish.

There is no published textbook evidence that supports a template being used in these ways, and a single day of on-road testing will quickly show that these purported uses are incorrect.

Now do you see how far down the rabbit hole of delusion people are here?

The whole foundation on which many people here have built their aerodynamic understanding is completely wrong.

Why? Because they've been systematically and persistently misled over a long period.

Trouble is, to admit that is to also admit to being utterly sucked-in to believing in garbage - and clearly (with just 2-3 notable exceptions) people would rather continue to be wrong in their understanding than admit to having been so completely fooled.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

[GROAN!]

Yes, The Template is a completely delusional waste of time!!

The whole concept of taking a predetermined shape (any predetermined shape) and applying it to guide the shape of extensions to cars, to guide the heights of spoilers, to assess the 'aerodynamic purity' of shapes, to determine where there will be attached and separated flow etc, etc is absolute and complete rubbish.

There is no published textbook evidence that supports a template being used in these ways, and a single day of on-road testing will quickly show that these purported uses are incorrect.

Now do you see how far down the rabbit hole of delusion people are here?

The whole foundation on which many people here have built their aerodynamic understanding is completely wrong.

Why? Because they've been systematically and persistently misled over a long period.

Trouble is, to admit that is to also admit to being utterly sucked-in to believing in garbage - and clearly (with just 2-3 notable exceptions) people would rather continue to be wrong in their understanding than admit to having been so completely fooled.

Thanks for the helpful hint there. I was under the impression if I boat-tailed my car I might get a little better fuel mileage. Oh well. I guess I'll go back to trying HHO generators.

[freebeard]

If only others here did the same!

Ummm, yeah.... I'm going to have to go ahead and carve out an exception for myself here.

The whole concept of taking a predetermined shape (any predetermined shape) and applying it to guide the shape of extensions to cars.... is absolute and complete rubbish.

This includes the Ahmed body and the Porsche 911?

Have you considered that [the probable minority] in awe of The Holy Template have been persuaded by the trans-Australian solar racers. When are you Australians going to stop gas-lighting people?

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Thanks for the helpful hint there. I was under the impression if I boat-tailed my car I might get a little better fuel mileage. Oh well. I guess I'll go back to trying HHO generators.

Boat-tailing will work very well on most cars. But determining its optimal angles from a template is absolute rubbish.

I am quite happy to explain why that is the case - I have done so here many times before.

As I said, people are so far down a rabbit hole of misinformation they don't seem to realise it. I've honestly never seen anything like it!

[ME_Andy]

I poked around the site a little bit and found a reference to the original source of (one of) the templates. There's a lot of info here, just very disorganized.

Anyway, here's the Ecomodder post and here's the paper that's behind a paywall:

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...tml#post511343

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44631714

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by freebeard

This includes the Ahmed body and the Porsche 911?

Yes of course. Using any predetermined shape to:

guide the shape of extensions to cars, to guide the heights of spoilers, to assess the 'aerodynamic purity' of shapes, to determine where there will be attached and separated flow etc, etc

....is just baloney.

It's just astonishing that the question even needs to be asked - just look in any aero textbook or do some on-road testing for yourself.

If only it were as easy picking some shape to give guidance to all the above things. Gosh, that would be so good.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

Boat-tailing will work very well on most cars. But determining its optimal angles from a template is absolute rubbish.

I am quite happy to explain why that is the case - I have done so here many times before.

As I said, people are so far down a rabbit hole of misinformation they don't seem to realise it. I've honestly never seen anything like it!

The thing is we can all only guess what you're trying to say sometimes. You sounded like you have no faith in shapes at all. As if an aerodynamic shape of any sort (not just the "template") has no value whatsoever.

Now it sounds like you're saying boat-tailing only works if you have it built at an optimal angle... As if a sub-optimal angle wouldn't help. After all, the template is rubbish, so following it should either not help or just make aerodynamics worse.

Is that what you mean?