Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Hybrids
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-07-2013, 05:02 PM   #91 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
You're going to make us wait many years after building up all that excitement?!?

Meanie.

__________________


  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 08-07-2013, 05:11 PM   #92 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
So what else has been done with the 1.9L TDI engine that could out do the Project Sipster?

Well you have the kids out in West Philly who used the engine combined with a hybrid design of there own to achieve an incredible 160mpge that was confirmed I believe from there EVX GT project and was also entered into the automotive X prize

Link to an article about there car = The West Philly Students Who Build Supercars - 2011 Breakthrough Award Winner - Popular Mechanics

Here is a link to there car build site which offers in depth specs on there cars = PIAXP Entries

So between project Sipster and this EVX GT build there should be little doubt as to achieving 100mpg from a 1.9L TDI with TIGON which will be hands down lighter and much more aerodynamic than either of the 2 cars discussed!

GH

Last edited by GreenHornet; 08-07-2013 at 05:38 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 05:34 PM   #93 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
You're going to make us wait many years after building up all that excitement?!?

Meanie.
Well Frank unfortunately it is not my intention honestly! This takes time tons of time actually and much money unless I win the Lotto building 3 prototypes will take years! I am just trying to be honest and realistic. I should conceivably be able to finish the first one in 1.5 years or less then the next ones will be much faster as the body kits are done and everything else sorted out.

Shoot just trying to figure out a suitable platform has taken way to long to be honest! But if you don't get the foundation correct like in a house you wont get the desired results.

I am opting to build the 1.9L GT4 model first as the composite body needs to be able to support the larger engine! I all ready have 2 GT6 cars present and I am currently purchasing most likely the entire front clip off a MK3 Passat from BC! So this will give me just about everything I need from the TDI standpoint to put together the car plus some GH engine mods!

The hybrid design is now complete and determined just need to now purchase the parts from the supplier and bolt it to the diesel engine!

I have found a suitable local T56 transmission priced right so I will be getting that these next few days also hopefully!

The Triumph rear differential is what is the stumbling block as of the moment and will take some time to sort out and determine suitable options. I could use the stock 3.27 if I do not increase HP and torque of the 1.9L engine at all. This would be fine for me as the stock 1.9L has plenty of Hp and torque for my needs but others will chip tune and modify the engine for sure to increased levels. It is to much of a temptation with these engines as they can easily be built to over 200hp and 400ft-lbs of torque!

Imagine this engine performance with a car that is around 1,500lbs and with a coefficient of drag under .18! So ya people will build up there 1.9 Liter engines and race them for sure with my kit car. So the differential has to be able to be bullet proof just like the T56 transmissions. The car is only as strong as its weakest link and unfortunately the Triumph Spit/GT6 had a weak differential and rear suspension that is begging for an update along with its 4 speed transmissions which I have all ready sorted out.

I can get the GT4 rolling chassis up and going with in 6 months or less from the point I got all the parts in front of me and then it will be on to the body design and fabrication!

So Frank just try to hang with me here as I am dong my best I also wish I could speed things up a lot but with job family and all the other world stuff it tends to stretch things out.

GH
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 08:54 PM   #94 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
mikeyjd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 838

Matchbox - '93 Ford Festiva L
Team Ford
Last 3: 70.16 mpg (US)

Salamander - '99 Chrysler Concorde LXI
Team Dodge
90 day: 30.3 mpg (US)

Urquhart - '97 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 V6 3.4L DLX
Pickups
90 day: 25.81 mpg (US)

Smudge - '98 Toyota Tacoma
90 day: 40.65 mpg (US)

Calebro - '15 Renault Trafic 1.25 dci
90 day: 39.39 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,380
Thanked 209 Times in 155 Posts
How long to get the body/interior sorted out and finished?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 06:55 PM   #95 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Hey Mikeyjd,

I wish that I could give you a definitive time stamp on the body shell but unfortunately right now I just can't.

What needs to happen first is complete the rolling chassis. You can not build the body first unfortunately. I suppose you could if you were using modern CAD designed plans but right now for the prototypes I will be using old school airplane and boat composite fiberglass techniques. These are the same techniques that they used to use in kit cars also. This is more labor intensive and time consuming than just putting a foam core into a CAD generated machine and having it cut out the buck for you. However this keeps the initial operation in house and costs down for the prototype. This building technique is used in the RQ Riley do it yourself build plans. You can go to his site and he offers a few articles that gives an initial overview of the process. If you purchase his XR3 plan set there is a DVD video that comes with the deluxe version I believe that offers more detail and shows the process in real time.

Anyways what I can say is once you see pics up and videos in this thread of the rolling chassis with the station formers installed you know we are at the composite body shell stage and it will not be much longer until we have our first vehicle to test out!

In this past few days I have made really good progress in getting the rear end design figured out and making contact with the right people who will be able to help me make it possible. So this is very good from a time frame stand point. My vision for the rear differential design is to create a modular unit that can be implemented into the existing Spitfire/GT6 chassis that offers fully independent suspension and that can withstand greater than 400 ft-lbs of torque. This completely does away with the main Triumph Spitfire/GT6 weak links ie. the rear suspension and weak differential. The other side of it is this the Spitfire and GT6 differentials are getting harder and harder to come by and are not cheap! they also really limit you to a max horsepower of 120 and 150 ft-lb of torque which is fine for the stock TDI 1.9 and the 3 and 2 cylinder engine models but for a built 1.9 no can do!

So maybe what I will do is offer the upgraded rear end as an option to people who have the desire to build up there 1.9 engines for race or track runners. The daily driver could save money on just going with the stock Spit/GT6 units we can obtain out of donors. However after I complete the upgraded rear end it may turn out that its cheaper to go this route than even bothering with the Spit/GT6 diffs if we have to go and purchase a rebuilt unit overseas!

GH..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 08:52 PM   #96 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Some thoughts

the main reason the Triumph Spitfires and GT6 cars never sold like they anticipated was very much do to the rear ends. They were unsafe to put it mildly if driven with any kind of spirit.

Sure there are kits now that you can purchase that help to keep these effects at bay such as camber compensator, CV axles, uprated springs and shocks for better tuning and adjustability etc.. However these upgrades still will never completely fix the inherent problems of jacking, blown diffs and axles!

The TIGON kit car gives us the opportunity to correct these deficiencies and produce a truly bullet proof foundation that is safe and robust for any driving situation.

This is truly what I am aiming to do but until I am finished with the first one trying to figure out if it will pencil out is a shot in the dark! If I can do it for a reasonable price it very well may turn out that we will adopt it to all of the models and completely do away with the Triumph rear ends all together with all of its short comings!

I really liked initially the idea of using jag E-type rear ends as they had the exact track widths as the Triumph Spit and GT6. The problem so far is finding a good source for used units. Poking around on the net is not very successful and when I did run across them they were expensive.

From a cost and availability standpoint it is hard to beat the 8.8" rear ends. It is also very hard to beat there strength and durability. All these are very good points for the 8.8" rear ends but the one that really gets me excited is the gearing options.

They can be found in the following gear ratios:

2.73,3.08,3.27,3.31,3.55,3.73,3.90,4.11,4.56,4.88, 5.13,5.71,6.14

Now compare this to the 4 Triumph ratios of 3.27,3.63,3.89,4.11 also compare it to R160 and R180 diffs and you will see that the 8.8" units have much more potential for options and interesting gearing combinations. To me everyone has a little different taste and desires and when we can bring together parts that complement each other and provide a high degree of personal customization I think we have something that is a winner.

Some other good points about the 8.8" differentials is they also came in aluminum pumpkins and offered aluminum carriers. You can find them with posi or non posi with 28 or 31 spline also. They can be built up to withstand a lot of torque more than any 1.9 tdi could throw at it and then some. These differentials not only give you the daily driver ability but also the track day monster car ability.

My intention has always been to design and build a car for extreme fuel economy and that has not changed one bit but my idea of extreme fuel economy is different than most others. The GT2 will do some amazing MPG numbers I have little doubt but the GT4 will give you this also compared to what we currently see today and with the added fun factor!

If you can see 100mpg plus out of a 1.9 TDI and still be able to accelerate to 0-60 in 5 seconds or better its hard to argue with such a proposition. While the GT2 may give you 1 liter fuel economy the acceleration may be horrible compared to what the majority of people these days have come accustomed to. While it may be fine for me and people like me that drive more like grandpas the reality is the majority like power and speed so the GT2 simply would not appeal to the masses.

So that raised the question what engine could I use that would still give me 100mpg fuel economy yet satisfy the need for speed?

This question is what led me to the 1.9 Liter TDI. I can pick them up in great shape used all day long for 2K or better and I can also get them new in crates for under 5K so the options are there either way a customer wants to go. From a business perspective the 1.9L makes the most sense really for here in the US and the rest of North America for that matter.

In my mind I want to create a vehicle that gives us 100mpg or better and that is truly affordable. I am biased to diesels and always have been. I am also biased to hybrids for there fossil fuel saving characteristics and the fact it opens the door for enhanced hypermiling strategies. I see them as a perfect match and one that we can use and implement today!

So first and foremost that is my goal get these things on the road and not just sitting on the drawing boards!

GH
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 01:26 AM   #97 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
Gotta admit, I'm baffled with the Spittie/GT6 obsession. Those things were obsolete when they were new- 50 years ago. And they aren't common and readily available. That rear end is a fundamental flaw, strength and handling wise, and one of the Top 3 reasons why I turned sour on them. Fixing that is enough of a chore and expense as to cause me (if it was me) to abandon the platform in favor of something more universally available, robust, and cheap.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 07:24 AM   #98 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Hi Frank,

You are very correct in your assessment of the Spit/GT6 rear end engineering. That was most definitely there fatal flaw which was bad for them and good for me :-)

While I do think in the future I will move to a custom chassis design right now starting out I think the Spit/GT6 chassis offers some great benefits with some highly needed modifications.

First the pros of the Triumph platform

The backbone chassis is strong and light at only 105lbs. The ability to create a custom body and bolt it up to the backbone chassis was a huge plus and opportunity to create a modern aerodynamic body kit. The front double wishbone suspension is solid. The steering is solid which many weekend racers often use in there custom builds. There are a lot of performance parts available for the Triumph cars as well as stock replacements. The majority of the steering, brake, and suspension bits are cheap and even the uprated stuff is not that bad. This enables me to keep costs down yet increase performance levels on a low budget. Another plus is the FR layout with a smaller engine such as the TDI allows me to convert it into an FMR layout for better weight distribution and handling characteristics extremely easy.

Now for the cons

The 4 speed transmission could not handle much torque and the gear ratios were not all that great even with the overdrive unit installed. The rear differential and axles suffered the same fate as the transmissions. They were weak and limited. Probably the single worst aspect of these cars was the rear suspension. Even though the suspension is light it is of poor design and causes jacking which is not fun. Also the rear end parts are harder to come by than the front end bits and they tend to be more costly. The differentials can be build up a little bit but the U joints are still weak and would never handle the torque of a mid level 1.9 Liter TDI. The wheels were heavy and do not offer many cost effective options for its stock bolt pattern.

So all of these cons allows me to get the cars for cheap and experiment with them. You pointed out they aren't common or readily available. I would agree with this when it comes to the GT6 cars but the Spitfires can be found pretty easily and often in poor condition and cheap. I just did a quick search of just my local area and 19 vehicles popped up of which 5 would be good candidates for TIGON builds. What I consider good candidates are anything I can get in descent condition for around $1,000 or less and older than 1975.

So how am I overcoming the Triumph negative points well the transmission is an easy one really. The T56 and T5 are both solid and readily available. While the T56 6 speed is very tempting since it can handle huge torque upwards of 500ft-lb it is heavy and costly! You can't find them easily for less than $2,000. Now the T5 on the other hand is only 75lbs super cheap can often find them under $1,000 rebuilt and under $500 from local options. There are tons of gearing possibilities they can easily be rebuilt by the owner and can handle upwards of 350 ft-lbs of torque and built to withstand even more. So the more I think about it the T5 makes almost more sense than even bothering with the T56 6 speed to be honest.

The tires are not that difficult to remedy just have some custom hub centric wheel adapters designed out of light weight alloy and use whatever rims you like. You can all ready find the popular 4 X 100 bolt pattern on EBAY now for around $200 for the Triumph bolt pattern.

The rear differential and suspension is the main hurdle and will be the biggest custom cost for the project. I am at this point pretty much set on the Ford 8.8" rear differential with a custom IRS design. The cost of the ford 8.8" is cheap and readily available the custom IRS will be the bank killer! However once I have a solid IRS design that is fully contained and solid I can then take that later on and adapt it to my own custom in house chassis design with ease.

When I am finished with this car it will out handle most all modern cars on the road today without a doubt. Not only that with the TDI engine tuned to lets say a modest 140hp and 240ft-lbs which can be achieved with a simple chip tune and injector upgrade it will out accelerate the vast majority of cars. Even without completely modernizing the rear suspension design the car has the ability to be tuned to pull .93g on the skid pad which puts it into the same category as a Honda S2000, Mazda Miata, Ford Mustang GT, Chevy Camaro SS, Pontiac Solstice, BMW 335i, and BMW Z4 3.0i. So that is not to bad of company in my opinion. But I definitely think there is a lot of room for improvement further when it comes to beefing up the parts to make them far more reliable and trust worthy.

I think Frank the majority of people would also abandon such a monumental task of taking on a project of this magnitude especially when it comes to trying to fix the Triumph flaws. For me I find joy in taking something with flaws and improving it. That is what I have always done and is what I am good at. I also think taking an old car destined to be turned into the scrap heap and giving it a new lease on life is something to not be ignored either. Finding ways to recycle our resources is important and one that I wanted to incorporate from the very beginning.

Is TIGON going to be perfect or for everyone?

No but I think with 3 options it makes it practical for a broader spectrum and when you consider all 3 will get better than 100mpg and be priced less than any hybrid currently being sold in North America well it will be hard to ignore that in my opinion!

The reality is that not everyone likes diesels and not everyone likes hybrids. But everyone likes a car that costs less and saves them money at the pump and over the course of ownership. TIGON will do all of these and more.

All these hybrids will need new battery packs soon yet TIGON owners will not need to worry about this ever as its battery pack is designed to maximize kinetic energy rather than store specific energy! The diesel stores the specific energy and does it much better than electricity will ever be able to in my life time most likely. Larger specific energy means much more money in batteries! I utilize a hybrid battery-capacitor bank that focuses on in town stop and go driving this helps to cut down on battery voltage as well as total battery weight thus keeping it inexpensive and easily replaceable after a 12 year period! Who wants to drop thousands on new battery packs the second you purchase a used hybrid? Not me or anyone else I do believe. I am designing the TIGON in such a way that it will hold its value from day one and become more and more valuable as fuel prices increase. I want people to enjoy it and not get board of it which is why I think the TDI powered GT4 model makes a lot of sense from a marketing perspective.

If we look at the Mazda Miata they were extremely popular and sold huge numbers. How did they do so well? It was well built, priced right, got descent fuel economy yet was fun and sporty to drive. It also presented the ability for modifications easily which was great for the majority who like to put there personal touch on things!

TIGON will also offer all of this while costing less and polluting less and being able to do it on far less fuel per gallon

I tell you what Frank once I am done with the GT4 model you can test it out We can make a day of it in fact. Besides I love road trips and I will be itching to take it some where new

Talk to you later Frank have a nice evening my friend,

GH
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Modified Spitfire lateral g#1.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	56.1 KB
ID:	13585  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 07:08 PM   #99 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Update!

Yesterday was a huge day for progress on the project.

I located an adequate donor vehicle for $2,200 and made arrangements to have it delivered to my shop. Not only that the person whom I am getting the donor from has been in the VW TDI business for the better part of his life and can get me just about anything I will ever need whenever I need it! I am very excited to have the opportunity to work with him moving forward and build a solid business relationship that will be lasting.

So what about the donor? Well it is a 1997 VW Passat with low mileage 128K approximately! So there is a ton of life left on this engine before I will most likely need to do a complete run through. Once I get it home I will most likely get the timing belt done and go over it with the usual inspections. The car was purchased at a local insurance auction up in Vancouver BC. the 1.9 Liter TDI has the engine code 1Z which is very similar to the AHU engine code except the conrods have smaller wrist pins.

Anyone that knows about the Passat realizes this year model was very desireable.

Pros:
-Usually the least expensive due to age and trim levels
-The 1996-1997 passat wagon has the largest fuel tank (~28 gal) and longest range of all the VW diesels, 1000 miles/tank is possible
-The sedans offered 18 gal tanks with 700+ mile range ability
-Easiest for do it yourself maintenance, simpler systems
-Lightest weight, similar engine as later cars
-Steel oil pan reduces chance of damage to engine from road damage
-Excellent choice for running biodiesel
-Front airbags
-Loosest emissions standards
-Manual transmission only

Being that the Passat only came in manual transmission this makes the conversion to any manual much easier as the ECU will not interfere. These engines came with AC which will save me money converting it to electric drive as well!

Looking forward to getting it home next week sometime!

GH
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 07:20 PM   #100 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
More updates

Yesterday I was checking out good old craigslist and stumbled onto a Ford racing aluminum drive shaft for $150.00.

Prior to that I was putting in some serious research time into the T5 transmissions and just how much torque they could be built to handle. Well much to my astonishment they can be built to withstand around 500ft-lbs which is much more than I previously thought. This opens the door to use this transmission exclusively at least to start with which saves me precious weight when compared to the much larger T56 and saves me buko bucks!

So the decision was made the T5 it is!

So that is when I started to research craigslist for options and ran into the drive shaft. It turns out that the drive shaft mates right up to the T5 as it came out of a Mustang the other end bolted up to an 8.8" rear end which is another component that I was heavily leaning toward using.

long story short I went and nabbed it and in turn helped me to make up my mind in going with the 8.8" rear end as the differential upgrade of choice

The aluminum drive shaft is longer than the original GT6 which is nice so that we can get it cut down to exactly what we need when the time comes. Another bonus is its much stronger than the GT6 unit and way lighter it is almost shocking in fact just how much lighter for having a far larger tube diameter.

So another piece of the bullet proof system obtained once I get the Passat home I will get some major pics posted up on here for you all to check out!

GH

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com