Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Hybrids
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-18-2013, 01:36 AM   #51 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,923
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,697 Times in 1,515 Posts
The new turn of the project is pretty interesting, I must confess I was never a big fan of hybrids. BTW are you still going to consider a turbocharger?

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 04-19-2013, 12:04 AM   #52 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Hey CR,

Ya I am definitely going to be playing around with a Turbocharger if I can find one small enough LOL

Most likely I will just use the diesel first and get that going before I add in the hybrid components.

However I was looking at that Yanmar engine more in depth and it is the fixed speed engine vs the variable. So this engine is designed to be used in gensets not in cars that need variable output on demand! Now they do make the exact same engine but in variable output so I need to find out exactly what parts I need to swap out to make it variable.

If I got this engine and decided the time and costs were to much to make it variable I could easily make my own genset and then turn the car into a series hybrid which would be better for freeway cruise as well as an easier installation vs the parallel setup. It would cost me more though but it might be worth it in the end.

I first just need to determine how much the variable swap will run me!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 02:56 AM   #53 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,923
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,697 Times in 1,515 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenHornet View Post
However I was looking at that Yanmar engine more in depth and it is the fixed speed engine vs the variable. So this engine is designed to be used in gensets not in cars that need variable output on demand! Now they do make the exact same engine but in variable output so I need to find out exactly what parts I need to swap out to make it variable.

If I got this engine and decided the time and costs were to much to make it variable I could easily make my own genset and then turn the car into a series hybrid which would be better for freeway cruise as well as an easier installation vs the parallel setup. It would cost me more though but it might be worth it in the end.
Eventually, you could make it with a similar setup to the Volt's driveline, with the electric motor as the main drive, but the Diesel still able to provide auxiliary power on demand. A clutch could be an effective way to couple it on demand, with different stages of clutch depression leading to different grades of auxiliary output depending on the circumstance
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 11:05 PM   #54 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Hey CR,

Yes that I think would be the best of both worlds to design it in the way the Volt is laid out. You need to electronically controlled clutches to achieve it and its most definitely possible however those clutches are not cheap and you would still need two electric motors so cost and complexity is much more but you would end up with a pretty sweet setup in the end.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 07:48 PM   #55 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,923
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,697 Times in 1,515 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenHornet View Post
Hey CR,

Yes that I think would be the best of both worlds to design it in the way the Volt is laid out. You need to electronically controlled clutches to achieve it and its most definitely possible however those clutches are not cheap and you would still need two electric motors so cost and complexity is much more but you would end up with a pretty sweet setup in the end.
I was considering a different setup for the clutch, connecting its actuator to the accelerator pedal, so when you would accelerate it would automatically release the clutch progressively. But I would also consider some manually-activated safety lock preventing the clutch to be released under certain circumstances.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 06:51 PM   #56 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Hey guys,

Figured I would give a quick update on what I have been up to.

Basically I have been doing a lot of research on the electric component side of the system.

I have narrowed my electric traction motor down to only two options now.

Options:

#1. ME0913 = Electric Motorsport EV Parts

#2. ME1115 = Electric Motorsport EV Parts

The ME1115 is basically the new and improved version of the ME0913. It is priced at $1,250 and is roughly $430.00 more than the ME0913 which is around $820.00. I am not sure if I really need the new features that are on the ME1115. The new bidirectional fan it has would be nice for increased cooling but for an extra $430.00 I am still undecided. I could easily implement my own electric fan system for much less I believe.

The controller for these motors are the Sevcon Gen4 units. The specific controller I have decided to go with is the 72/80 550 at a cost of $1,195.00 = Electric Motorsport EV Parts

This will give me regen capability and a nice amount of boost amperage if need be for hill climbing and or freeway passing situations.

The DC-DC Converter I am thinking about is the Elcon 84-120VDC Input nominal 12VDC 30A Output this unit is $260.00. = Electric Motorsport EV Parts

The on board charger will most likely be the ElCon PFC2000+ Charger 2kW, 36-288VDC Output unit at a cost of $725.00. = Electric Motorsport EV Parts

The batteries are still undecided at this point. I really like the Lithium Iron hybrid supercapacitor batteries but the cost is high and I have some doubts honestly about there 5,000 cycle 80% DOD ratings. In theory they should have a longer lifetime than typical Lithium Iron batteries at 2,000-2,500 cycles with the integrated supercps, but I am not exactly sure if I want to be the guinnea pig and test them out for the added costs!

I will definitely be using a Luithium Iron battery system just not set on which brand yet. The BMS will most likely be the LIGOO system = LIGOO

This post gives you all a solid idea of the electric system i will be running and the direction I am going with it. I had originally thought I would get the diesel portion up and running first but after doing some research I think I will move forward with the electrical side. This will give me the advantage of understanding just how much electrical energy the car is using in various environments and situations which will better allow me to size the diesel range extender system! This will give me the ability to build a more efficient system based on the cars performances rather than going off of what I think will be enough.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 12:52 PM   #57 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Well it has been a short while since I have posted so I decided to give an update.

Today I started purchasing the vast quantity of sourced parts

My focus currently is on the front end components.

This past week I made a major decision on the wheel/tire combination. Instead of going with a 4X100 PCD +35 Enkei RPF1 15X7 wheel I decided to go with the Smart 3X112 PCD +23.5 15X4.5 wheels up front.

My main reasons for making this decision were the fact that the original GT6 wheels were 13X4.5 and had an +24 offset. So by staying true to the width and offset for the most part would virtually guarantee me I will have no issues rubbing with these wheels. Even if I made no custom composite body I would still be able to use these wheels with the stock GT6 after of course the correct wheel bolt pattern was drilled out of the blank alloy hubs.

The Smart wheels are less than 1 lb heavier than the Enkei RPF1 wheels but because they are only 4.5" wide instead of 7" I can mount a much lighter tire to these wheels for a big weight savings advantage in unsprung weight.

Due to the fact that the Smart wheels are much slimmer than the Enkei this should give me a reasonable advantage as it pertains to less rolling resistance as well as (PMOI) Polar moment of inertia, since again I can use lighter tires.

The cost of the wheels were much less with little effort locating suitable options. The Enkei wheels would have been at the lowest price $180.00USD the Smart wheels I found for $100.00 USD. So there was a nice little cost savings there on this component.

This cost savings advantage did not only end at the wheels this also carried over into the tires as well. Although the cost savings was not that noticeable initially I think having a 12lb tire vs an 19lb tire will save me pennies every day they are used

The wheel/tire combination weight for the Enkei/Ecopia was 28.82lbs and for the Smart/Continental it is 22.5lbs for a 6.32lb unsprung weight advantage per side. I know at first this does not really sound like much but every pound of unsprung weight has a major effect on handling and fuel economy so if you are trying to cut weight in a build this is the one area that you really want to focus on and do the best job you can as you will get the biggest bang for your buck initially and down the road

By the end of this month and early into next month I should have all or very close to all of the front end parts purchased and in route. This is the goal that is but the majority of the parts will be coming from overseas in Europe so shipping time will play a factor.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Smart 15X4.5 Wheel.JPG
Views:	23
Size:	53.0 KB
ID:	13033  
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 01:47 PM   #58 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Today one of the components I purchased that I would like to discuss in detail a bit further was the Vauxhall Corsa C adjustable Electronic power steering column. The cost was $76.77 USD with another $76.77 USD in shipping costs to get it to the US. The grand total was $153.54 USD.

Now for most of you that do not know about this (EPAS) Electronic power adjusted steering option I am gonna fill you in on it now.

From all of my research this is by far the cheapest and easiest way to get electronically adjustable power steering into any older manual steering vehicle, kitcar, dune buggy, or sandrail etc....

You can pick up these columns in either adjustable or fixed. They will come with and without the ECU. You want to get the entire setup in order for it to work. They sometimes will also be able to be purchased with the steering wheel but I opted to find one without so that I can get my own lighter weight sporty version. The lighter weight sporty versions can be purchased for as little as $37.00 USD. The only thing needing to be done is customizing the center emblem!

Now just by purchasing the column alone will not give you the ability to have (EPS) electronic power steering even if you get the entire unit with the ECU. You still have to purchase another piece of the puzzle which is the EPAS Controller. The reason you need the controller is because the ECU needs input from various speed sensors.

A quick run down on how an EPS system functions and works in unison with the EPAS controller:

Electric power steering uses an electric motor to assist the steering. A computer module (ECU) receives information from several sensors and decides which level of assistance the electric motor should deliver to the steering. When you install the Corsa C electric power steering to your vehicle it will not work because the ECU does not receive info from the vehicle speed sensor or engine speed sensor. This is why you will also need an EPAS controller. The EPAS controller sends information to the ECU according to the position of the controllers manual adjustment knob feature. In other words the position of this adjustment knob determines the steering assistance level. This makes it fully customizable to the driver which is a nice feature and can be even manually turned off if desired.

The nice thing here is the only thing that you need to worry about is the steering column the rack and pinion stay stock. Some of these controllers come with a 50A fuse and fuse holder to protect the electric motor and some do not. I would just go with the all in one controllers. These controllers can be easily found on Ebay for as little as $50.00 USD including shipping to the US that is. They also are often protected by a 2 year or better warranty which is nice.

Now for a few hundred USD and a little tinkering you can turn your manual steering vehicle into a modern electronically adjusted steering variant. Compare this with some of the other costly EPAS options out on the market and you will see this is a very real and affordable option for anyone that is interested in having efficient adjustable power steering!

I hope this post was informative and is able to help somebody else down the road

GreenHornet..
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	GT6-Vauxhall Corsa C EPS Upgrade.JPG
Views:	33
Size:	49.9 KB
ID:	13034   Click image for larger version

Name:	Vauxhall Corsa C steering wheel.JPG
Views:	30
Size:	67.9 KB
ID:	13035   Click image for larger version

Name:	EPAS Controller.JPG
Views:	32
Size:	30.5 KB
ID:	13036  

Last edited by GreenHornet; 05-13-2013 at 01:51 PM.. Reason: Typos
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 08:39 AM   #59 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,923
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,697 Times in 1,515 Posts
The Brazilian version of the Opel Corsa C, which was rebadged as a Chevy, had a hydraulic power-steering. However, ironically, electric power-steering was used in some Diesel-powered versions for export...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 03:20 PM   #60 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
GreenHornet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 429
Thanks: 41
Thanked 108 Times in 68 Posts
Hey gang,

Its been a while since I have posted last. Been slowly getting the parts ordered up. I was unable to get the 2 cylinder diesel engine due to the fact they sold out amazingly fast. This may have been a blessing in disguise as I found a new variable unit albeit at almost double the cost. This eliminates the need to figure out a way to adjust a fixed unit variably and would also save me time doing it!

So I will be picking up this unit for just under $2K delivered to my door step not bad for a brand spanking new diesel unit that is exactly what the recipe calls for. I am pretty excited about this find and looking forward to getting it under the shop lights.

Now that this is sorted out I will need to determine which turbo to run on this little guy. The goal is to produce around 25hp max out of this unit which is around an 11 hp bump. Ideally I will want to use a small enough turbo so that is spools up faster lower in the rpm range say around 1400rpm to 2200rpm this will help on fuel economy as I will be able to get into overdrive sooner and stay there for longer durations.

Another piece of the puzzle that I have been researching as of recently is duel fuel options. I have been researching this as a possible alternative to a larger battery pack. Essentially I would cut back the electric battery pack to a minimum level and use it for only start stop situations and limited regenerative braking thus turning Tigon into a micro electric hybrid.

The big advantage here is up front costs lets face it electric drive components are really expensive when using them to power a vehicle under electric only power. Hence why you do not see many diesel electric hybrids as you are taking a cost hit for the diesel and for the electric systems.

So is there alternatives?

That is what I have been spending much time researching since my last post. To my astonishment there is options available that will greatly benefit the diesel efficiency and fuel economy and that is by utilizing a duel fuel hybrid system. Now this is nothing new, people have been doing it for years with water/methanol injection and propane systems.

After reading up on water/methanol and propane I stumbled across CNG and that is really what sparked my interests. Come to find out its almost the perfect compliment to diesel and can be used in a diesel engine very easily.

So why did CNG spark my interests so much well its a very clean burning fuel cleanest in fact inexpensive fuel. It has a high octane rating there for allows the diesel to be burned more completely reducing diesel emissions and you guessed it increases mpg and can drastically cut total vehicle fuel costs. The cost locally right now for CNG here in my part of the country is $1.25 per (GGE) or gas gallon equivalent. Here in the US we have huge reserves of natural gas so in many respects it would help support our country to use CNG as a fuel source for vehicles.

The trick is CNG will not auto ignite so you still need to use some percentage of diesel in your fuel mix. You also want to do this because diesel fuel has more BTU than CNG and all other fuels for that matter which is a big part of why diesel cars go farther on a gallon of fuel. So what you do is use propane as a substitute not as a sole source of propulsion. This gives you the benefit of the diesel energy capability and in fact further enhances it by the higher octane properties of CNG.

You end up with a fuel mixture if set up and executed correctly that will allow you to cut total fuel costs, increase mpg, drastically cut emissions, and increase engine torque and horsepower! Add a little water/methanol injection into the mix and you have a system that can handle the added power levels and is extremely safe to use and benefit from!

You can safely use a mix of 80% CNG to 20% diesel at low to moderate engine loads without experiencing MPG loss! This is huge considering again here where I am from CNG is $1.25 per GGE compared to diesel that as of today is averaging $3.80 per gallon... This is a difference of $2.55 per gallon of fuel. That is a huge savings folks and in many respects makes you wonder if its even worth implementing the high cost electric components for an electric hybrid.

In my humble opinion the micro hybrid still makes sense from a cost perspective but full blown makes little sense at all since discovering the CNG option. The good thing is this will cut the cost of the project way down as I will not need to fork out so much dinero for the electric components and a simpler system can be designed such as a larger more capable electric motor in place of the stock alternator unit for start stop, no idle, regen braking and low speed accelerating situations. A small electric motor can be used one that has a peak of 20kw of power only for the cars needs. These can be found at low costs not adding big costs to the project. While the CNG systems do cost money they are much cheaper than going the electric hybrid route in which the car can be powered from electricity for distances of 40-60miles. Kits can be purchased for around $1,000 or you can try and go the home built route to save some coin.

I apologize for the long post but again I want everyone to understand my thinking and reasoning for the Tigon hybrid design. The project is taking turns as any vehicle project does and I want to make sure everyone is up to speed with the decisions being made here on the long journey.

GH

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com