Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-13-2009, 02:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
Ernie Rogers
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pleasant Grove, Utah
Posts: 133
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
The ultimate efficiency 4-passenger car

Hello, folks,

I wrote a nine-page analysis for the Sierra Club on what they should expect for the likely efficiency of a personal automobile at some time in future, say 10 or 20 years from now. (Or, maybe sooner.) I think you can access it here:

http://ecomodder.com/AutomobileEfficiency.doc

This is a Word file. If you have trouble, let me know, and it will get fixed.

The final conclusion is that this future car will get 150+ miles per gallon at 60 mph on the highway. The EV folks of course will want to know how much electricity it would take as an EV, and I didn't include that in the paper. But I can convert to an EV, given the plug-to-wheels efficiency.

For EV efficiency of 70% (plug to wheels), the future car would use 123 watt-hours per mile at 60 miles an hour.

Ernie Rogers

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 05-13-2009, 02:50 PM   #2 (permalink)
Dartmouth 2010
 
SVOboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hanover, NH
Posts: 6,427

Vegan Powa! - '91 Honda CRX DX
Team Honda
90 day: 66.52 mpg (US)
Thanks: 92
Thanked 114 Times in 82 Posts
Send a message via AIM to SVOboy Send a message via MSN to SVOboy Send a message via Yahoo to SVOboy
Good work, Ernie.

What exactly is your relationship to the sierra club?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 07:30 PM   #3 (permalink)
Left Lane Ecodriver
 
RobertSmalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Posts: 2,258

Prius C - '12 Toyota Prius C
Thanks: 79
Thanked 283 Times in 196 Posts
What do we lack now that we will have in 2030? Why can't you build this 150mpg cruiser in 2009?

I hope lightweight alloys and composites will become more affordable. I'm sure rolling resistance will continue to improve, and I look forward to rolling on future LRR tires. Just be aware that current solar car LRR tires may be too low traction for anything besides solar cars.

Aerodynamics is a mature field. The existence of concept cars from the 1950s with Cd as low as .14 indicates we have been capable of excellent aerodynamics since at least then. The development of computational fluid dynamics may have been the final advancement in aerodynamics research. If automotive Cds continue to decrease, it will not be due to emerging technologies, but to making aero a higher priority during the design process.

A four seat, probably four wheeled, "stretch-Aptera" concept would come close to the pinnacle of fuel efficiency achievable with current technology. Punching the numbers for an Aptera that put on 300lbs into the simulator at Aerodynamic & rolling resistance, power & MPG calculator - EcoModder.com , we get an amazing 158mpg at 60mph steady-state cruise. EPA fuel economy would be much less, maybe 100mpg? If there were enough demand for it, it could sell for $30-40k.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 09:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 21,637

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 53.78 mpg (US)

Winter beater Metro - '00 Chevrolet Metro
90 day: 61.98 mpg (US)

Fancy Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 58.72 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 66.29 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,388
Thanked 6,199 Times in 3,210 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertSmalls View Post
What do we lack now that we will have in 2030?
Perhaps the constraints of "consumer acceptability"?

That's the limiting factor the automakers routinely march out as a reason to shoot down ideas that stray from where they really want us to be.
__________________
Latest mods: 3-cylinder Mitsubishi Mirage. EcoMods now in progress...
Ecodriving test:
Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2009, 01:02 AM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 807 Times in 591 Posts
One big question: why on earth should a PERSONAL automobile carry four passengers? Get past that mental block, and you have room to cut weight & improve efficiency even further.

Of course there's also a market for family cars, that can carry four or more, but there's a large percentage of the population that doesn't need cars this size.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2009, 01:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
Ernie Rogers
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pleasant Grove, Utah
Posts: 133
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVOboy View Post
Good work, Ernie.

What exactly is your relationship to the sierra club?
Member, transportation expert /chair in Provo, Utah
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2009, 01:42 AM   #7 (permalink)
Ernie Rogers
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pleasant Grove, Utah
Posts: 133
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
I agree, Robert,

Mostly we are waiting for industry inertia. Uhh, the Aptera is an EV?

If you are talking about mpg equivalent, I wasn't for the new car. You can check my calculations--punch my design parameters into the program. Present engines can't deliver 150 mpg until you get about 40% efficiency, which isn't available yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertSmalls View Post
What do we lack now that we will have in 2030? Why can't you build this 150mpg cruiser in 2009?

I hope lightweight alloys and composites will become more affordable. I'm sure rolling resistance will continue to improve, and I look forward to rolling on future LRR tires. Just be aware that current solar car LRR tires may be too low traction for anything besides solar cars.

Aerodynamics is a mature field. The existence of concept cars from the 1950s with Cd as low as .14 indicates we have been capable of excellent aerodynamics since at least then. The development of computational fluid dynamics may have been the final advancement in aerodynamics research. If automotive Cds continue to decrease, it will not be due to emerging technologies, but to making aero a higher priority during the design process.

A four seat, probably four wheeled, "stretch-Aptera" concept would come close to the pinnacle of fuel efficiency achievable with current technology. Punching the numbers for an Aptera that put on 300lbs into the simulator at Aerodynamic & rolling resistance, power & MPG calculator - EcoModder.com , we get an amazing 158mpg at 60mph steady-state cruise. EPA fuel economy would be much less, maybe 100mpg? If there were enough demand for it, it could sell for $30-40k.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2009, 01:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
Ernie Rogers
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pleasant Grove, Utah
Posts: 133
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
One big question: why on earth should a PERSONAL automobile carry four passengers? Get past that mental block, and you have room to cut weight & improve efficiency even further.

Of course there's also a market for family cars, that can carry four or more, but there's a large percentage of the population that doesn't need cars this size.
James, your problem is simple-- you are smarter than the average U.S. car buyer, who thinks he needs to cover all possible uses in just one car size and shape.

Ernie
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2009, 01:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Bicycle Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: N. Saskatchewan, CA
Posts: 1,597

Appliance White - '93 Geo Metro 4-Dr. Auto
Last 3: 42.35 mpg (US)

Stealth RV - '91 Chevy Sprint Base
Thanks: 76
Thanked 345 Times in 243 Posts
So, the Sierra Club thinks that climate change and current trends allow economic predictions more than a decade distant? I wish I found this reassuring.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2009, 09:42 AM   #10 (permalink)
Tire Geek
 
CapriRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Let's just say I'm in the US
Posts: 743
Thanks: 1
Thanked 335 Times in 207 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertSmalls View Post
What do we lack now that we will have in 2030? Why can't you build this 150mpg cruiser in 2009?

........


Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Perhaps the constraints of "consumer acceptability"?

That's the limiting factor the automakers routinely march out as a reason to shoot down ideas that stray from where they really want us to be.
Consider for the moment that this same question was asked during the 1973 oil embargo, when, interestingly, the price of gasoline quadrupled (Sound familiar?) Cars back then didn't have as standard equipment: Air conditioning, electric windows, cruise control, automatic transmissions, etc.

If vehicles had stayed the same during this entire time, the technological improvments would have resulted in improvements in fuel economy as suggested. However, vehicles that sell today have higher acceleration rates, better crash survivability, less harmful emmissions, more luxurious features, better sound insulation - but they are also heavier. As Ernie pointed out in his article, weight = fuel consumption.

Nope, The problem is you and me and what we are willing to accept.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Effect of gear oil viscosity on transmission efficiency (Metro owners take note) MetroMPG EcoModding Central 44 12-08-2014 11:22 PM
Electric car conversion: Project ForkenSwift MetroMPG Fossil Fuel Free 1041 07-28-2014 09:19 AM
EcoModding for Beginners: Getting great gas mileage. SVOboy EcoModding Central 55 08-20-2012 11:34 PM
Need Advice: Buying car directly from owner Wayneburg The Lounge 10 02-27-2009 09:29 PM
10 years to build an electric car? - Blog article bennelson Fossil Fuel Free 8 01-26-2009 09:01 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com