Vetter streamliner body kit

[bschloop]

the other major consideration is that a motorcycle can only be used for 4-6 months out of the year in many states. I for one cannot replace my car with a bike. it must be a second vehicle, and as such needs to be even more cost effective. I paid $8000 for a used truck with 60000 mi on it.

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by renault_megane_dci

I believe the aero package needs to be sold as a package AKA a vehicle.
I believe this vehicle can not be compared to a car because it must be a dedicated vehicle (2 seater) and not everybody can afford a dedicated vehicle.

The whole world is playing a game of gaining money, if you want product to sell, make it make money for the buyer.

Good point!

Even though most daily trips are covered by 2 seats the majority of people at least here in the US prefer a sedan with 4 or more seats. It is a limited niche and I see most people buying 2 seat motorcycles for performance not economy!

Given the chance I think more people would prefer something that shields them from the elements and is more practical in all environments. Most people can not afford a dedicated vehicle so the trick is to build something that can benefit the most while keeping your goals and principles in order.

This is one major reason I went with a 3 wheeled platform for TIGON as I can have all the benefits of a 4 wheel vehicle but still reduce weight and cost. I can also have the same or better fuel economy as a 2 wheel motorcycle but with better protection characteristics. Another advantage I can have is more seating and cargo capacity similar to a conventional 4 wheel vehicle.

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by bschloop

the other major consideration is that a motorcycle can only be used for 4-6 months out of the year in many states. I for one cannot replace my car with a bike. it must be a second vehicle, and as such needs to be even more cost effective. I paid $8000 for a used truck with 60000 mi on it.

Yes this is my issue as well when I was trying to figure out what to build. This is why I went with the 3 wheel concept with an enclosed cockpit. This way I could replace my car with something that got well over 100mpg and can be used year round just like a normal car. So far the cost of my TIGON is under $7,000 USD with only the interior, body and some misc unaccounted for. This is with mostly brand new components minus the chassis and some suspension parts which I reconditioned. This gives you a vehicle that has no miles on it and can easily get over 100mpg on the freeway and because its a hybrid it will also give you excellent in town economy.

[bschloop]

I might even be skeptical of the safety of a trike in a Michigan winter. Ice and snow are quite dangerous. even some automobiles have a hard time, although I feel that often it is the driver at fault.

[GreenHornet]

Hey bschloop,

No you definitely have a very valid point ice and snow is no good for any amount of wheels and Michigan definitely has its fair share. Out West we chain up or used studded tires this seems to help. However with trikes that have a single driven rear wheel such as mine traction is definitely not going to be as good as one that has both wheels up front engaged. The trade off is I will get a little better fuel economy out of the single rear wheel drive. If I need more traction I will just chain up which for me does not happen that often.

I think the best would be a single rear wheel drive from an ICE with an electric motor up front powering those wheels. This would give you the potential for all wheel drive when needed or desired. This adds weight, cost and complexity but gives you some advantages in times when traction is needed during bad weather situations.

You eluded to the fact that often the driver determines the outcome and this is very true but there are times when even a good driver has no chance without the proper vehicle in a given situation.

Nice points bschloop,

GreenHornet

[stiletto2]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

Hey bschloop,

I think the best would be a single rear wheel drive from an ICE with an electric motor up front powering those wheels. This would give you the potential for all wheel drive when needed or desired. This adds weight, cost and complexity but gives you some advantages in times when traction is needed during bad weather situations.

You eluded to the fact that often the driver determines the outcome and this is very true but there are times when even a good driver has no chance without the proper vehicle in a given situation.

Nice points bschloop,

GreenHornet

IMO Practicality wise, also having electric drive up front would certainly aid in pulling through in certain situations, but they would likely be so infrequent that carrying around all the extra weight, not to mention the added complexity of having it work harmoniously with the ICE driven part would seem to make it impractical. That is to say that you would be negating some of the performance/economy of the ICE and drive system alone.

You said yourself that even a good driver has no chance without the proper vehicle in a given situation. If you were to be in difficult driving conditions frequently, then it would seem to make sense to me to just use a purpose built vehicle.

For a three wheel, reverse trike setup, I think front wheel drive alone whether electric or ICE would be better for pulling through hairy situations and not loose much in the way of performance/economy overall, though a single rear drive would likely be more efficient.

A hybrid such as you describe still might be able to be done I suppose, but it would almost surely be a tricky* bit to get such a system together and trickier** yet to have it be more economical and efficient in a substantive way. Otherwise, what would be the point of it?
Just sayin.

* tricky = onerously difficult and expensive
** trickier = even more so as above

[GreenHornet]

Hey Stiletto2,

Actually the hybrid drive is really not that difficult to implement. The component weight is light also. In my vehicle for example The electric motor weighs a wopping 35lbs, Controller is 6lbs and the batteries a mere 50lbs. In the set up I proposed the ICE and electric drives would be independent from each other linked only by the ground. You can find a similar setup in theory although swapped electric powering the single rear wheel in the XR3 hybrid plans. Things always have a way of seeming difficult and expensive until you decide to find a way to make it otherwise!

In order to make it worth while the car has to be light 1,200lbs or less and aerodynamic in fact extremely aerodynamic like a cd of 1.4 or better. This allows a 2 cylinder or 1 cylinder diesel with a 10kw continuous -20kw peak electric motor to be used with only a 2 kwh battery pack! This gives you a descent battery only range in excess of 20 miles or better depending on how you drive. If you are like me and drive like a G-PA you could probably get about 30 miles EV only! The VW XL1 I think has around a 4kwh pack and gets about a 40 mile range but its cd is higher and weight is also higher than what I propose.

The ultimate point is to use less fossil fuel and take control or have the option to take control of our transportation driving fuel source. If you stick with gas then you are at the mercy of the pump gods :-) If you go diesel well you have Bio fuel options and if you add electricity then you have the ability to charge up at home where you can install your own PV arrays and produce a cleaner energy source.

There was a guy back in the day in Minnesota who build a 1 cylinder gas 3 wheeler that also used a CVT from a snowmobile. I think it was called the HMV Freeway. Anyways it did ok in the snow with its single rear wheel drive and 12 or 16 hp single cylinder gasser. The 12hp version also got over 100mpg. I think it weighed around 700lbs if I recall so just a little micro car but they built and sold about 700 of them until they went out of business. I sometimes see them on Ebay. They also offered EV only and a diesel option which was never built to my knowledge. It would be interesting to see what a 13hp single cylinder diesel could do mpg wise with one of these guys compared to the gasser 12hp!

[stiletto2]

12 or 16 HP trike? That sounds like something I thought about doing one time with the rear end section of a 250cc scooter but I didn't (and still don't) have the skill set to put together a front end so I abandoned the idea.

I didn't realize that the electric/electronics had come so far to be so light and compact. Never did much get into electro-locomotion. When one says home-built electric car, I think glorified golf cart and similarly for E-bikes. After being schooled a little on this now, I imagine that notion would be taken as sacrilege nowadays. I suppose alternative fuels would make sense if one truly believes the doomsayers and the SHTF crowd. Gasoline is still easy enough to procure and remains somewhat affordable. But I could wake up some day and find that it is no longer a viable power source. (out comes the bicycle and decent walking shoes )

All that will become moot when someone figures how to do the hydrogen/oxygen thing safely and cheaply. Seems that wind, hydro, PV should be cheap because there is plenty of moving wind and water and the sun comes round every day all pretty much for free. They can put a man on the moon but can't figure how to make economical storage for all that free power. Where is the energizer bunny when you really need him most?

BTW, I'm still gathering items and waiting for warmer weather to really be able to get into working on the Vetter fairing for my Honda Reflex scooter. It's got the Polini gear set with a slightly taller ratio installed and I already have a taller tire on the scooter but I was disappointed with the one test ride I took. I'm hoping for better results once the fairing is done and installed.

[Varn]

We used to do winter centuries (100 miles) and metrics (100km) on our mtn bikes in the snow on roads. I have had 4 trikes and they are downright easy to ride on snow covered roads. The main problem is up hills with no weight on the rear wheel. Having knobbies or spikes is a plus.

I was commuting to work one snow covered day on my mtn bike. I was going down a hill covered with ice and snow and did get sideways enough to high side on a drier spot. I limped home and got in the car. Pretty well sucked with the road rash. High sides are the worst.

The last 5 years I don't ride on snow covered roads as a rule. Broken bones take longer to heal anymore.

Originally Posted by bschloop

I might even be skeptical of the safety of a trike in a Michigan winter. Ice and snow are quite dangerous. even some automobiles have a hard time, although I feel that often it is the driver at fault.

[Grant-53]

For 17 in. motorcycles wheels Maxxis makes an off road tire suitable for mud and snow. A liquid cooled bike with a heater and full body would be doable here most of the time. Most people just aren't brave enough to get the skills to do it. Same applies to mountain bikes in the winter. My father-in-law would tow the kids' snow saucer around the yard with his dirt bike. As for a trike the tire tread and weight distribution over the drive wheel is key. Lighting, heating, wipers, and defrosters are important too. Ground clearance should be enough to keep snow from getting packed under the vehicle. Battery efficiency is reduced by lower temperatures but motor efficiency is increased.