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Old 06-29-2009, 07:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Hey guys. I hadn't been on this blog in awhile and found this particular thread of interest. I've been studying this "kind" of "thing" for over 4 years now. I've researched many patents such as Smokey's and met those who have well known Ray Covey and or Tom Ogle of more recent patents related. There are always to many unknown variables in the people and the patents them-self to give any formal conclusion. Smokey was one to make sure KNOW ONE stepped on his ideas or ever lost (so he says) proprietary information. Direct words from Carrol Shelby himself was that Lee Iaccoca killed Smokies K Car idea utilizing the adiabatic system that Carrol himself was involved in (he didn't say to what extent). I used to give him free advertising space in my newspaper for one of his Children charities along with a popular restaurant owner here in Albuquerque.
Back to heating fuel. First off, particularly in gasoline the expansion rate of the fuel related to heat, can contribute to pressures that can escalate exponentially within a few degrees above 85 or so. Although we have high pressure pumps in our tanks to deliver fuel, the peculation effect of expanding fuel can easily override it. True however disassociation of fuel molecules can be achieved from the addition of heat in a very controlled environment and with a means to extract the fuel at that point controlling pressures. Also a means in which to deliver the fuel at that point, effectively,to the induction chamber. Thus while still obtaining oxygen density to maintain your proper A/F ratios.
Most of the lighter elements such as Butinal (one of over 160 elements typically) have been utilized to run the vehicles. This is what Tom Ogle was doing to only find the heavier elements to the fuels formula still left in the tank. By the way his mileage I couldn't really verify from any one still living who was part of that, although Ray Coveys brother has confirmed the 100mpg in a 440ci Chrysler. However "it could hardly get moving from a dead start". Obviously running the engine at optimum lean "barely" burn. Yet still, the mileage was obtained.
Warm air creates a number of problems that a 1st year or 2nd year physics student would understand related to ICE functions, however there are some basic benefits that due exist however current vehicles are not prepared to take advantage of it due to the nature of current designs. Unless you've structured a proper device and instillation on a non-computer controlled car it's pretty much a waste of time. Wrapping electrical tape around your fuel lines will be more of a waste of electrical energy depriving your alternator and ultimately utilizing more energy than a any kind of gain in mileage, which also may just create more problems depending on the pressure created due to fuel expansion.
Pressure however can be a great way to disassociate the molecules as Gail Banks has very well proven in his drag racing truck in which over 30K PSI is behind the diesel in that truck to get about half a dozen runs from one gallon of diesel with a 1,200hp engine at WOT. View it here: Jay Leno's Garage
However you will need a complete "system" to achieve the same to take advantage of pressurizing fuel.
I've experimented with many ideas of varied ideaology and design. I am currently in the process of patenting two extraction devices that allow a regular gasoline engine or SIE to run on diesel, bio-fuels and of course gasoline. Designed for optimum power, efficiency and of course much cleaner emissions. I'll leave it at that and hope I answered a few questions without getting into very lengthy descriptions of operating systems, gasoline/ hydrocarbon based fuels chemistry etc.

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Old 06-30-2009, 05:13 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Warm air and fuel with diesels

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Originally Posted by ebacherville View Post
the idea behind warm air intake is the fuel atomizes better, any one thought about warming fuel before its used by the motor?

This is how vegetable oil conversions thin the oil out for injection so it atomizes better.. they run the oil through heat exchangers that warm the veggie oil up to coolant temp..

Any thought or any one try it?
Many diesel engines actually do this in stock configuration. My 84 Escort (Mazda diesel engine) has an electric prewarmer on the fuel filter housing to do just that, and then the unspent fuel is recirculated through the housing unit before it goes back to the tank to warm up fuel for cold weather climates. There was also an cold weather climate option on this car that was a heater element for the air intake box!

VW TDIs and old diesel Mercedes (I had a 82 240D) also use the recirculation to continually preheat the fuel filters to avoid gelling. I have known a few biodieseler's who installed heater elements in their stock diesel tanks so they could run B100 all winter in the northeast, and it worked well for them. They did not do a SVO conversion, just got the elements out of single-tank conversion kits and did that one part.

Seems like a thermo or disable switch for hot summer months might be good, but otherwise it's a solid practice.

HTH!
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:55 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Yes, for diesel or denser based fuels such as vegetable oil, or kerosine, etc., Examples of heating these fuels go back to the early 1900's and even earlier. For similar reason you discussed above. However, heating gasoline or any variation of C8H18 will not work well without additional controls, as I explained why above. I ran my 1973 240D on vegi and diesel with ease. You can also "restructure" the diesel to gain better performance and mileage. My 240D was a dog otherwise, even with a standard transmission.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:45 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SVOboy View Post
I don't really buy the atomization bit for warm air intake. The real reason it works on some cars is because the ECU leans out the fuel mix to compensate for the lower oxygen content in the hot air.

That said, there've been a lot of "hot fuel mods" out there but I've never been convinced by one.
very true. I did learn something just this winter about venturi..it doesn;t matter about heat, if the air is at speed to be a shredder..guess what? the fuel goes with it...it is a stupifying epiphany.

Speaking of .. I will show my own mod not far off, and notes of before and after, it ought to be as obvious as it seems. I rin a carb, and they are dranatic to such chores. Some may note that injections, everything electronic has heat. that is the desire for CAI on may vehicles. not to be faster, but for efficient, and get the air correct.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Liquid gasoline injection

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Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
Hi,

An interesting variation on this was used in the Ducati SuperMono -- instead of using a fuel injector that sprays a mist; they used an injector that sprayed a single stream of gas, aimed right at the center top of the piston. The fuel hits the hot metal piston crown and vaporizes -- and it cools the top of the piston better than an oil mist on the backside.

The size of the piston/combustion chamber on this motorcycle required them to do this; and they ended up with a (counterbalanced) single cylinder engine that can rev up well over 10K RPM.
This sounds interesting...I have read about water injection before but never really went anywhere with it. I imagine that this idea (liquid gasoline injection) would probably accomplish a similar goal, which is more advanced timing by reducing knock if I recall correctly.

Are most automobile injectors aimed toward the center of the piston though? Are there "stream" injectors that would fit in place of OEM injectors?
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchboy View Post
This sounds interesting...I have read about water injection before but never really went anywhere with it. I imagine that this idea (liquid gasoline injection) would probably accomplish a similar goal, which is more advanced timing by reducing knock if I recall correctly.

Are most automobile injectors aimed toward the center of the piston though? Are there "stream" injectors that would fit in place of OEM injectors?
Most Injectors in gasoline cars aren't even inside the combustion chamber. They fire with the air going in.

Some vehicles, such as the Cobalt SS turbo, have Direct injection. This actually allows them to run super lean under some conditions.

However, they don't directly inject a stream of gasoline. This would result in very poor emissions under most cases. You want to atomize the fuel as much as possible to get a complete burn. You need as much surface area as possible. At higher RPM you only have a fraction of a second to completely burn all the gasoline as much as possible. Even then, most gasoline engines still send unburnt fuel down to the cat to be burned.

For a diesel engine, the scenario is different. The reason why they need to warm fuel is in order to get it to atomize better. As the fuel warms, it's viscosity lowers. The lower viscosity allows the fuel to come out of the injector as a finer mist. This allows a more complete burn, because there is more surface area.

Warm diesel fuel technically would have some thermodynamic influence on the burn temperature... but it would be so small as to be statistically insignificant, observable only on a calculator.

Warm gasoline in the winter might actually have a bit of merit. In very cold areas, gasoline won't vaporize very well. But that being said, no mater WHAT you do, your not gonna get great mileage at -30.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:36 PM   #27 (permalink)
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"Even then, most gasoline engines still send unburnt fuel down to the cat to be burned."

Sorry but this statement is inaccurate. Not entirely wrong, just inaccurate. Please understand I'm not being critical. Only in older cars was there an issue of actual gasoline particulates/ molecules that could still combust after exiting the exhaust chamber. All the fuel is "burnt" in the chamber on most any normally running fuel injected system by today's currant design. This is a misnomer from past systems. A catalytic converter is a device using a "catalyst" which entails platinum, palladium, and or rhodium, to change the exiting hydrocarbon emissions to a more neutralized chain lowering NOX and high Co2. The byproduct from most current designs is actually a larger percentage of H20. These are current bouts of information that currently mechanics receiving an SAE certification must know and learn to quantify through traditional computations.
A lot of misinformation exists. After reading the Wikipedia I realized it can be mis-understood to some degree if one is not more familiar with considerable detail to currant SIE or basic ICE combustion and breakdown of variations of C8H18 based fuels. The utilization in terminology regarding "fuels" "gas" and "gasoline" have very distinct outputs in any equation related to ICE or basic SIE's. Thus most of the terminology gets mis-appropriated and from a technical stand point, through further conversations, becomes confusing or simply wrong from a technical level. So simply know that a "gas" is from the lighter elements as Methane, CH4 and others related to Naphtha with in the hydrocarbon chain from C4,5,6 & 7 to liquid "fuels" such as gasoline, diesel and Kerosene. Gasoline typically being at about C8H18.
Not at all trying to be an ass, but to help clarify terminology that just leads to confusion in an area where most people would like to know more about in order to make significant changes when it comes to understanding mileage gains from the ICE side.
Here is some information that better illustrates the complexities of the combustion process as related to thermal release from the fuel and related to ICE and related to complete burn of the fuels utilized:
Influence of a Combustion Parametric Model on the Cyclic Angular Speed of Internal Combustion Engines. Part I: Setup for Sensitivity Analysis - Energy & Fuels (ACS Publications)
Here's information related from an engineering forum showing their debates via quantification related (initially they are talking about a compressed gas related to ICE,but change relations to gasoline ICE):
Engine & fuel engineering - water + hot gas + cilinder = ?
A lot of very well written and detailed papers have to be bought, which is really unfortunate, but I listed this one regarding "Effect of Engine and Fuel Variables on Liquid Fuel Transport Into the Cylinder in Port-Injected SI Engines" by Dr. John Heywood from MIT anyway. It's a very good explanation:
Effect of Engine and Fuel Variables on Liquid Fuel Transport Into the Cylinder in Port-Injected SI Engines

Last edited by naturalextraction; 07-01-2009 at 09:13 PM..
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:26 PM   #28 (permalink)
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sorry,

Hydrocarbon Emissions would have been more accurate.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:57 PM   #29 (permalink)
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so I have devised a copper pipe with a 2' coil of smaller copper tube i have it installed in my car with coolant running through it. I never connect the fuel line (copper tubing) so it runst through the coolant.

What your saying is that if connected,my fuel pressure will be too erratic for the car to operate correctly? once the fuel is being heated by the engine coolant?
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Fuel Heater

I just installed a plate type heat exchanger to heat my fuel. The car is a '97 2.5 liter Subaru. I am now getting cylinder misfire codes which leads me to believe it is significantly leans the mixture, why I am not sure yet. I did modify the fuel system so as to only heat the fuel going to the injectors instead of the whole tank. Still working on it.

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