Are we abusing alcohol?

[roosterk0031]

I hope GM brings what it's learned with Saab to the Cruze, I think it will be FFV in a year or 2 and perform almost the same with either fuel.

[jakobnev]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Ethanol resistant materials for the fuel system.

Yes Frank, the ethanol fuel system would be built from ethanol resistant materials.

Carb'd will be jetted bigger and injected may have bigger injectors.

Yes again, the ethanol injectors would be bigger.

Dedicated ethanol engines have higher compression ratios; flex-fuel engines are saddled with the lower gasoline C.R.s which compromise efficiency when they're running ethanol.

The whole point of using different fuels for different loads is to NOT have to compromise with such things as CR. (did you read the first post?)

[shovel]

In this case, couldn't it be done dead-simple, like by mounting a TBI injector pod on an MPFI engine, run the MPFI system on ethanol but with a higher pressure fuel pressure regulator (so that more fuel per pulse escapes the injectors) and use manifold vacuum (or a combination of inputs) to modulate the delivery of straight gasoline through the TBI injectors?

I don't get all this talk about "ethanol resistant" fuel systems, if gasoline already has 10% ethanol and fuel handling parts don't fall apart in 30+ years why would a greater concentration of ethanol make them fall apart? Why would OEM's make fuel handling materials that can be damaged by ethanol when they KNOW a 10% ethanol fuel is going to be in contact with them 24 hours a day for more than a decade? At what point does the solvency of ethanol go from "absolutely no damage whatsoever" to "totally dissolves everything"? 15%? 30%? 43.33331%? And by what mechanism does ethanol go from absolutely zero harm at low concentrations to total harm at higher concentrations?

[Odin]

Instead of corn we should be using the hell out of our tropical regions (FL,AL,MS,LA, and parts of Tx) To do what Brazil has done with sugar cane. Putting a ton of money into the south without destroying our farm lands over producing corn.

back on topic, there is a drift team by me that uses a two tank gasoline/ethanol hybrid system in their silvia where they run on gasoline till boost at which point it is all e85- I have several pics somewhere in my files when i find them i'll post up but when talking to them it was all about detonation and the fact they could get the turbo to spool much faster than just strait e85- i don't think FE was even a thought haha

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by jakobnev

The whole point of using different fuels for different loads is to NOT have to compromise with such things as CR. (did you read the first post?)

I responded to this post:

Originally Posted by jacobnex

I was trying to ask him how the engines would be different. (Besides obvious things like AF-ratios.)

and that's pretty much how they're different.

[Frank Lee]

Ethanol Boost
Lesley Bromberg, Daniel Cohnand John Heywood, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, are developing a small turbocharged ethanol*boosted engine that is expected to be just as efficient as a hybrid.

The ethanol is used to combat knock in the standard gasoline combustion cycle when the vehicle is running at high torque. When needed, a small amount of ethanol is injected into the combustion chamber where it vaporizes, cooling the fuel and air mixture to below 3140 F. Based on computer models, the engine should develop twice the power of a spark-ignition engine and be 20 to 30 percent more fuel efficient.

Because only minor mods are necessary to mate this technology with existing ICE topology, the manufacturing cost is minimal compared to hybrids--around $1000 to $1500 instead of $3500 to $5000. However, it will require two fuel tanks--one for ethanol, the other for gasoline. An engine could be in production by 2012. "We are currently working with several automakers, including Ford," Cohn says.

5 New Takes on the Old-School Engine for Super MPGs - Popular Mechanics

[Christ]

One way to make a multi fuel engine would utilize multiple cam profiles to effectively lower the dynamic compression characteristics of the engine in use. Example: an engine which is built with a simple CR of 14:1, with the gasoline cam profile being one which limits air intake such that the cylinder is not completely filled, similar to an "atkins"cam. The resultant smaller air/fuel charge will not detonate as readily due to compression.

Alternatively, the second, or E85 profile would be that of a standard camshaft, designed for a high compression, E85 only application.

With regard to fueling, the most compatible system would include two sets of injectors, each with an independent fuel system, the only common structures being electronics and intake manifold.

[Hubert Farnsworth]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

5 New Takes on the Old-School Engine for Super MPGs - Popular Mechanics

They aren't the only ones looking at the possibilities of a spark ignited direct injection (SIDI) turbo charged engine with ethanol being used in the process, although Behr and Ricardo corporations working together have been also trying to validate the additional concept of adding in an egr cooler on the gas engine like that of the heavy truck, cooled by the same glycol as the radiator for even more thermal management and efficiency.
Ricardo, Growth Energy announce demo program for EBDI ethanol engine with 30 percent higher fuel economy : Biofuels Digest
“Doing More with Less� - The Fuel Economy Benefits of Cooled EGR on a Direct Injected Spark Ignited Boosted Engine
http://www.ricardo.com/Global/IA/Our...0programme.pdf

All of which goes to show that if you did tune an engine specifically for ethanol rather than gasoline it could extract more power and efficiency at a higher compression rate than those allowed for by conventional flex-fuel vehicles.

[nemo]

Originally Posted by Christ

One way to make a multi fuel engine would utilize multiple cam profiles to effectively lower the dynamic compression characteristics of the engine in use. Example: an engine which is built with a simple CR of 14:1, with the gasoline cam profile being one which limits air intake such that the cylinder is not completely filled, similar to an "atkins"cam. The resultant smaller air/fuel charge will not detonate as readily due to compression.

Alternatively, the second, or E85 profile would be that of a standard camshaft, designed for a high compression, E85 only application.

With regard to fueling, the most compatible system would include two sets of injectors, each with an independent fuel system, the only common structures being electronics and intake manifold.

Why use a cam at all? Would it not be more efficient to use a solenoid or a stepper motor to control the opening and closing of the valves, which then could be computer controlled. Not only could the valve timing, duration and lift be fully adjustable, but then in essence have a variable displacement engine by selecting not to use cylinders at the when not needed.

[Frank Lee]

It's a nice idea that's been in research and development for many decades but for some reason it isn't on the street. Hence, cams.