Are we abusing alcohol?

[erice1984]

Originally Posted by Piwoslaw

I can imagine the (legal) problems of having alcohol separate from the fuel. When it is mixed with petrol there is no fear that it will be used (or abused) "in other ways". When mixed with fuel alcohol isn't taxed as heavily: While a liter of petrol with 5% ethanol costs just under $2 here, pure alcohol at the liquor store goes for 7-9 times more.
Also, the law here states that "It is illegal to have an open container with alcohol inside the vehicle". Imagine if the alcohol tube sprung a leak and the driver would be breathing the vapors for hours at a time. LOL

Now, legal nuances aside, having a second system paralleling the fuel supply would add complexity and weight (not to mention cost), but may be worth a shot (pun intended).

as far as I know, Ethanol used in fuel has chemicals added to make it unfit for consumption. These chemicals would be harmful to humans. That is why there is no consumption taxes on ethanol for fuel.

[Arragonis]

A lot of Russian troops in WW2 (and Afghanistan I think) went temporarily and sometimes permanently blind from drinking fuels and anti-freeze from their vehicles in the extreme cold.

[gone-ot]

..."wood" alcohol (methanol) is not the same as "grain" alcohol (ethanol).

[Cranky]

Originally Posted by Ryland

Also at least in the USA alcohol fuels are subsidized by tax dollars because they take so much energy and fuel to produce that it is a net loss.

You hit the nail on the head....and we're paying for it all the way to the grocery store too with high grain prices. Food for fuel just doesn't make sense to me....

[Odin]

sugarcane

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Cranky

You hit the nail on the head....and we're paying for it all the way to the grocery store too with high grain prices. Food for fuel just doesn't make sense to me....

Makes prefect sense to me if the"food" we are talking about isn't for for human consumption anyway, AND doesn't displace did that is meant for the same.. Most of what I've heard about bring used isn't. I do agree that corn isn't the must efficient means of exacting fuel alcohols. There are cups which take less space, grow more densely, require less maintenance, etc.that would be better candidates, IMO.

One must also remember that there are meal grade solids left after the process which constitute animal feed, closing another waste stream, and providing a necessary commodity.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by jakobnev

The whole point of using different fuels for different loads is to NOT have to compromise with such things as CR. (did you read the first post?)

Look at pg 9:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...hments_rpt.pdf

[roosterk0031]

Just starting playing with my own blends again, I did it before with the Malibu before having a Scanguage, now with the Stratus, first tank was in E17 range. Now have about E32 at a total cost of $3.00 a gallon. First trip to work was 30.8 mpg, last week on E17 had 31.8 & 29.5

I've doubted people saying they could tell a difference with fuel, but it does feel a little stronger down low.

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...inal_12507.pdf

[Allch Chcar]

There was a reference in the study I posted a couple months ago that suggested a turbocharged 12:1 Compression engine could be run on gasoline via Multiport EFI and use no more than E50/G50 in the direct injectors under heavy loads.

The difference between an Ethanol vs Gasoline engine is mostly fueling system(more flow, anodized aluminum, viton(TM) o-rings, etc), different ECU maps, and higher compression or turbocharged which requires a sturdier block and components. FFV's fueling system is not that different from a regular car, but it is 100% Ethanol compatible and the ECU is designed to accommodate wide swings in fuel changes and adapt faster than a standard ECU. A factory built E85 specific engine is pretty rare outside of Sweden or Brazil but some prototypes have been build like the Ford Bobcat. Mostly I see them in the hotrod, tuner, or racing crowd in their modded cars .

I agree our Ethanol supply could be improved, but not all of the Corn is used to make Ethanol nor is it "food grade" either and there are many different ways to make Ethanol cheap. The best part about ethanol is that it is versatile, near 100% Ethanol is a pretty standard grade and necessary to mix it with Gasoline. So it could be made from just about any simple sugar/starch/glucose source. Sugar cane works for Brazil because they have cheap labor but they can pay close to what we do per gallon($1.50 vs $2 a gallon) of Ethanol depending on the Global price of Sugar .

I've heard of people getting within 85% of the original mileage with E85 so I know it's possible. But for a hypermiler driving a Gasoline designed engine, the max E85 MPG is probably going to be 70% of the MPG you could get on Gasoline :/ If Car companies start relying on more turbo engines then Ethanol could really shine. I could see them eliminating the lower grades of gasoline and just going with 93 octane Gasoline and E85 or even E95 if our Ethanol economy spread out into more regions than just the Corn belt. Until then E85 is just another premium grade and rarely available and usually marked up.

I'm going to make my next car E85 compatible. I'll probably keep it mildly modified so that I can still run Gasoline in a pinch. An ethanol injection system could be modded up too with a throttle body injector as mentioned. But I'm trying to keep my dream simple so I can achieve it . I already limited myself to RWD and at least 30mpg on E85 .

[roosterk0031]

Someone here buy a FFV Malibu 4c 6 speed auto or a Saturn Aura with the same engine package, I can't believe they drop from 33/23, wife suburban gets 83% of mileage on E85 of E10. I'm running 0% ethanal thru the Stratus as an experiment for the next tank or 2.

Going from E10($0.11/mile) with the Stratus to E30($0.106 mile) dropped to about 93% mileage. After the E0 test is complete, will do 3 tanks of E20, then start pushing up to E35-40-45.

I really don't care if we use most of our corn to make ethanol, why ship it overseas to ship petrolum back. I'd rather use 80% of the kernel to make ethanol, use the other 20% to feed cows and ship beef overseas. Why ship cheap raw material when you can ship expensive finished product.