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Old 05-18-2008, 06:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SVOboy View Post
Carbon fiber for the same price? Just looking at bikes, which is one place where it's easy to see side by side comparisons of the same things in steel, aluminum, ti, and CF, you'll see they're not the same price by any means.
bikes are not really MASS produced like cars. If you were to produce cars that were made out of carbon fiber the price would be the same. Everything is "expensive" at first, but we can make cf for cars and mass produce this stuff like crazy.

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Old 05-18-2008, 06:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The weight and safety correlation has been a hot debate here before, and I definitely disagree with this. Modern vehicles can wreck many older ones and keep the passengers much safer regardless of the weight disparity. Now when you figure in crumple zones they may not look like they did better, but all that kinetic energy needs to be converted somehow.
I agree that they are safer, no doubt. I meant more towards the fact that weight is the number one factor that these cars get awful mileage as compared to the older lighter vehicles. If you compare the weight and mileage of a civic today vs. the weight and mileage of a 5th gen civic they aren't even in the same league. Granted the new one is much safer but its also much heavier. There is a way to make a car safer and still weigh half of what they currently weigh, but it all comes down to it not being cost effective to make it happen. Now with the gas prices hitting record highs every time you go to the pump, the manufacturers may be forced into researching this.

To clarify my point (which I'm horrible at doing) I was thinking more along the lines of a civic like mine getting into an accident with, say, even a new accord, I won't stand a chance because the accord has me by at least 1200lbs or more. Back in 92 the accord was maybe only 400lbs heavier than my civic.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
I place some of the blame on the safety nazis and all their requirements for safety crap on new vehicles.
I respectfully disagree.

Remember that Aero trumps weight. So, let's say that ABS, Full Airbags, Traction Control, seatbelt pre-tensioners, and door braces account for 100-150 pounds of extra weight.

If you reduce the Cd by 0.01, you've likely canceled-out that extra weight (the equation is around here somewhere).

I'd rather have these items in vehicles, first for the sake of accident prevention, and secondly to protect those we care about in case someone makes a big mistake and runs into them (or you, for that matter).

If some drunk T-boned you at an intersection and knocked you into a pole -- wouldn't you want side-airbags and frontal bags + belt tensioners and crumple zones to save your arse? If Ralph Nader didn't champion seatbelts in the 60's, would we have them today? I can say from my ER and Medic experience that the difference between a belt and no belt is dramatic. IMO, this trend must continue. Those who claim those <1% of people who become "trapped" by the belt is preventing serious injury of death is sitting on a steaming pile of crap for an excuse.

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Old 05-18-2008, 09:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
igo
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I think $4 gas is starting to change the average American's mind when it comes to power/mpg.

If a low priced and safe car was released with ~50mpg I think it would sell well. It would also have to be more versatile (seat 4 or more) then the smart car.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH77 View Post
I respectfully disagree.

Remember that Aero trumps weight. So, let's say that ABS, Full Airbags, Traction Control, seatbelt pre-tensioners, and door braces account for 100-150 pounds of extra weight.

If you reduce the Cd by 0.01, you've likely canceled-out that extra weight (the equation is around here somewhere).

I'd rather have these items in vehicles, first for the sake of accident prevention, and secondly to protect those we care about in case someone makes a big mistake and runs into them (or you, for that matter).

If some drunk T-boned you at an intersection and knocked you into a pole -- wouldn't you want side-airbags and frontal bags + belt tensioners and crumple zones to save your arse? If Ralph Nader didn't champion seatbelts in the 60's, would we have them today? I can say from my ER and Medic experience that the difference between a belt and no belt is dramatic. IMO, this trend must continue. Those who claim those <1% of people who become "trapped" by the belt is preventing serious injury of death is sitting on a steaming pile of crap for an excuse.

RH77
Yes a little areo and gearing goes a long way. Lots have proved that here. I got to see a side impact for real on the new beetle yesterday. A old Lincoln ran a stale red light and t-boned the VW doing about 35. No side airbags on the VW, the Lincoln deployed both of his, but both came out of the mess just dazed and confused. I was really impressed with the results of the VW.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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bikes are not really MASS produced like cars. If you were to produce cars that were made out of carbon fiber the price would be the same. Everything is "expensive" at first, but we can make cf for cars and mass produce this stuff like crazy.
I don't know if there still is, but there was a shortage on carbon fiber and I doubt you could mass produce them anyway. Lots of the carbon fiber goes to airplanes for now, but I'm sure if more carbon fiber companies pop up it won't be as big a problem.

Carbon fiber is not really good in crash tests though. It tends to shatter rather than absorb the impact. Maybe polyurethane would be a better option? If it was made stiffer maybe.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Compaq888 View Post
... the worser the fuel economy of cars.
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... demanding more bigger engines
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What's the point of sticking all this crap?? why not build some lightweight economical cars, people want them!
Keep up the great work
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Old 05-22-2008, 03:45 AM   #18 (permalink)
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GM is still pushes the escalade /yukon insanity...Even their hybrid is a giant yukon abomination.GM has been a dinosaur since the 70s.They cannot think or create anything that is not a boat.Its their dna.Listening to bob lutz is scary.He s a luddite stuck in 1969.GM is doomed imo.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:20 PM   #19 (permalink)
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If you have to ask, you don’t know safety regs.

It’s not so much the air bags, belt tensioners, etc – it the side door beams and the body structure to support them. The door has to be of minimal thickness, so the beam has to be of shallow section. It is asked to do its job “the hard way” so the only response is to make them of thick metal and fairly large. Add to that heavy structure to support it in the “A” and “B” pillar areas, and you rapidly get 400 pounds a door of extra weight.

An old mid-60s Chevy II Nova weighs in at about 2300 pounds with a six, but is by today’s standards a 24-karat deathtrap. Volvos have a well deserved safety reputation, but are very heavy for their size and predictably suck gas.

The feds and the courts demand safe cars and that means heavy cars. Add in the deleterious effects of Tier II engine regs and there’s little wonder where the MPG went.

You wanna legislate technology to get better MPG? Outlaw the automatic transmission. Safety would be improved as well. You’d have to be an octopus to jabber on the cell phone and shift gears.

I'm glad I'm not conceited enough to think I know more about the car biz than Bob Lutz.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:02 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
...and you rapidly get 400 pounds a door of extra weight.
So I have 1600 pounds of "door" on my sedan. Where is that number from? On a truck, maybe.

The American public wanted bigger cars (or were made to think so). So that's where the extra weight comes in.

I think it's ludicrous that this discussion even takes place -- especially Tier II/Bin-5 requirements. There's a learning curve with new tech. Look at the days just after the catalytic converter was implemented. 130 hp from a V-8 was "High Performance". People *****ed and moaned, but eventually the power curve came back up -- as did FE simultaneously. It has to start somewhere, and I for one, am glad it has.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion, so here's mine. If us, or the people we CARE ABOUT DEARLY don't have the Jedi-like accident avoidance of Frank, the price we pay for the smaller car is more rigidity, increased safety devices, and accident prevention systems to prevent the unthinkable. It seems like a no-brainer to me, but who am I...

RH77

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