What are the car manufacturers doing??

[RH77]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I'm just P.O.d cuz I wanna kei car and they won't lemme have one.

So they are good enough for millions of motorists worldwide, but not here?

RH77- Do/would you ride a bicycle or motorcycle?

I investigated trying to import a new car from Canada and it was a big, expensive roadblock. I think if the vehicle is old enough, you can import one legally. Registering it State-to-State is another issue.

As for a bicycle, I used to ride almost every other day. That was back when I lived closed to a park with a long trail, and I could take back streets to get to it. Today I'd have to haul it somewhere to ride -- IMO too dangerous with the crazy drivers here. A woman was killed just a block from my house by a tanker truck, which is where I fuel-up. It's one incident of many.

Motorcycles -- not so much. I had a dirt bike a while back, and that was enough. I figured out quickly that I need 4 wheels. How much more of an FE boost can I really expect? I rarely see (or hear) anything but loud "cruisers" that likely get less than the average car driver attains.

RH77

[Big Dave]

When the EPA first started putting restrictions on car engines, it was a disaster for the motorist. The cars of 1973 were the worst cars ever built. The relative performance levels of 1972 were not restored until well into the mid 90s, and that took a revolution in computerized engine management.

Yeah, there is a heckuva learning curve – a twenty year learning curve if past is prologue, but we have no engine management revolution showing on the horizon, just $4500 filter/afterburners that wreck fuel economy. The loss of performance may last even longer this time.

And for that we get…what? Has the EPA given us any metric of health benefits that will be realized from Tier II? Not that I know of.

This is a very valid discussion to have. When society is asked to pay a steep price, one has a right to expect some sort of payoff, but I just don’t see any promises about the benefits of Tier II and ULSD requirements.

[dsq]

"When the EPA first started putting restrictions on car engines, it was a disaster for the motorist. The cars of 1973 were the worst cars ever built. The relative performance levels of 1972 were not restored until well into the mid 90s, and that took a revolution in computerized engine management."

This may have been true for american cars but japanese and german cars were thriving and improving all through the 70s and 80s.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Nissan says that they will be "lightweighting" their entire line -- they are going for %15 weight reduction.

Honda is planning a new hybrid-only model that seats 5 and they say it will be the least expensive hybrid sold in the US.

Toyota is working on the 1/X (say: 1 Xth), which is a 4 seat carbon fiber car similar to the Prius -- that has a curb weight of 926 pounds!

Aptera will start production of their Type 1E and Type 1H in October of 2008 -- it gets between 130 and 300+ miles per gallon (equivalent, in the case of the all-electric 1E)!

They are doing just about everything possible to gain efficiency:

Drag is 0.11cg
Weight is ~1,400 pounds (I think)

Check out the Popular Mechanics video about the Aptera:
Aptera's Super-MPG Electric Typ-1 e: Exclusive Video Test Drive

Loremo (in Germany) is going to build a 4 seat car that gets 85mpg in it's faster model, and 157mpg in it's more efficient model. They are starting with a diesel engine (50HP in the former, and 20HP in the latter).

I think we can learn a lot from these and other cars: the Aptera uses three video cameras and three screens on the dash for views behind and beside it. The Loremo has it's raison d'etre of light weight with structural safety, by not having any side doors.

What if Honda put multiple latches on the side doors of the 2009 Fit? How much weight could they save, because the doors add strength and resist impact?

What if they installed video cameras in place of the side mirrors, or designed (mostly) inboard mirrors?

It seems to me that a serial electric hybrid is the way to go, and lighter weight and better aerodynamics are the way to go. Front wheel drive is great for the usual reasons AND you can gain the most regenerative braking that way.

[trikkonceptz]

I would so drive an Aptera, but @ $30K it once again becomes unreasonable. The problem is that the laws of demand and controlling supply are going to reign over our society for time in the future. Driving the costs of efficient vehicles higher than they should be.

I see the Aptera and notice that their are no exoic material being used, just smart engineering, yet it's $30K

That car could be priced @ $20K i'm sure, a level which most commuters would gladly spend on a new car.

So for the not so distant future, modders like me will have to settle for the Aptera Vibe, and hoping to get over 60mpg out of an inefficent gas engine.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

The base Aptera Type 1E is ~$27,000 and the Type 1H is ~$30,000 -- but these are early production numbers, and early adopters will always pay more. And they will average 200+ miles per gallon! The 130mpg is a minimum based on all-hybrid operation, w/o any plug in charging. Plug it in at night, and for about $1-2 of electricity, you can drive ~80 miles before the hybrid generator kicks in.

Say it has a 4-5 gallon gas tank: at minimum, that would be 80+(4 x 130) = 600 miles range. For my typical commute (about 100-110 miles round trip), I could charge it each night, and the would be (6 x 80) + 520 = 1,000 miles between fill ups; or 250mpg plus $6-12 worth of electricity. (Here in New England we pay ~20cents/kwh, which is high, so I'll carry the $2 cost.)

Totaling up the cost of fuel for 100,000 miles would be (4gal x $4 x 100)+($12 x 100) = $2,800 total. Compare this to my Scion xA, which would be (100,000 / 37mpg) x $4 = $10,810.

I would save $8,010 per 100K miles -- so if I drove the Aptera for 200,000 miles, the extra cost would be worth it -- and that is at just $4/gallon! We will likely see $5-5.50 by the end of this year, and $6.50-7 next year -- so the Aptera would pay for itself pretty quickly...

I've been wondering if they want/need to start up an east coast production facility?

[Lazarus]

Has anyone checked into details about insuring one of these Aptera?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

It is 3-wheeled and it is classified as a motorcycle in most states, I believe. So, if you need to carry collision and theft coverage -- that would be pretty steep. But if you just need medical, it is pretty inexpensive.

If your state requires you to have a motorcycle license -- drive the Aptera for the road test!

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hello,

It is 3-wheeled and it is classified as a motorcycle in most states, I believe. So, if you need to carry collision and theft coverage -- that would be pretty steep. But if you just need medical, it is pretty inexpensive.

If your state requires you to have a motorcycle license -- drive the Aptera for the road test!

I would think you would want to carry collision on a 30k vehicle. I'm just wondering if insurance would shy away from them because of parts availiblity.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I'm sure that your insurance company would have to do the research on it -- a completely new vehicle type.

I rode a BMW K75S for about 11 years. It cost me about $6,000 new in 1987, and if I had gotten collision, I would have paid $1,100/year. So, if you can go for 6 years w/o a claim, then you have saved the cost of replacement.

Just going with the percentages, that means the Aptera would cost you ~$5,000/per year -- obviously this is a wild guess, and before buying an Aptera, I'm sure I would call my insurance agent!