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Old 07-30-2012, 08:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ecomodded View Post
That and it has 10% less energy by volume.
Energy density is really a point of contention? So is gasoline unacceptable because it has less energy density by volume than liquid hydrogen?

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Old 07-30-2012, 08:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Its unacceptable because the diluted ethanol is sold to us at the same rate as gas even though it has less BTU's
I have a Propane fireplace even though i have Natural gas lines threw my neighborhood. Reason is Propane has 10% more BTU then Natural gas. Who wants to pay more for less?
Who wants ethanol ? is it the consumer or business who wants it.
I am really hoping the future is without ICE's.

Why don't they bump the BTU's up on it ? seems like a scam, low output fuel for a 10% percent increase on your fuel bills.

Damn that Ethanol, lol
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Seems like pyrolysis would be the way to go... take all the products we've made from hydrocarbons (primarily plastics) that can't feasibly be recycled any other way and extract usable fuel back out of it.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm old enough to remember the "energy crisis" of the early 70's. After things stabilized (albiet higher pump prices) Citgo offered a product called Gasahol. 10% ethanol blended into gasoline. They had a picture of an ear of corn on the pumps. Cost about 2 cents more per gal. at a time when gasoline was selling about 50 cents / gal. The experiment lasted about a year when after poor sales they pulled it off the market. The point I'm trying to make is back then I had a choice. Read the report about Archer Daniels Mcneal to get a little history of how the stuff got into our fuel supply. If you think the stuff is so great you haven't done your homework.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
It is my understanding that the refining process has become more efficient than the oft-quoted old study that "showed" a net energy loss. The ethanol industry didn't even protest the demise of one of their subsidies, as they are making it anyway. If it was so inefficient could they do that?
I am sure it is better then a net loss now days.
As for the subsidie who needs that when many states mandate the usage of it. So they can charge what ever they want.

Now lets take what we learned and find something other than corn to use to make fuel.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I am really hoping the future is without ICE's.
Sure... but what about all the ICE's already deployed? Throw them in the trash?

If, starting today, every automotive manufacturer made the boardroom decision that every future car they design from a clean slate would be ICE-free, they would still need to make their current crop of vehicles for many years. It's not a one day change-over. They have equipment and property to amortize, they have purchase obligations to satisfy, it would easily be 15 years before we saw the last ICE roll off an assembly line from that boardroom decision made today.

We would still have 100 years worth of ICE powered cars on the streets, sure they'd slowly die off but if someone told me to take my paid off and fully functional transportation out of service just because we ran out of petroleum and they feel emotionally opposed to ethanol use, I'd tell 'em to pack it in their prison suitcase.

How about all the people who make their living distributing liquid fuel from the refineries to the points of sale? And the properties and equipment tied to that? Whatever kind of fuel source we use in the future will be needing distribution and end point sales, even if that source is electrons. Unless you've got a Mr. Fusion patent you forgot to market...

Hopes are cool and all, but hopes don't run engines.

If not ethanol, then what do you suggest?
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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CAUTION: the following text contains Macabre Humor ! ! !

Maybe the petroleum industry should 'partner' with hospitals and 'extract & recover' ethanol alcohol from the blood of dead and/or arrested drunk drivers?
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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If you think the stuff is so great you haven't done your homework.
Sure, I hear that a lot. And then I do homework. And as a response I get unsupported rejections.

Do you agree that petroleum is a finite resource? If so, what do you suggest as an alternative to ethanol when we eventually discover how finite petroleum is? Or, do you believe that time will be after our deaths and it is the job of our grandchildren to figure out their next step?

I don't ask these things combatively... I just don't want impossible ideals to be the enemy of improvement. If a superior option exists that can be put into actual practice in the actual real world, I am genuinely curious to learn about it.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:29 PM   #19 (permalink)
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There has to be a better idea then growing hybrid corn for energy.
The future is closer then Shovel reports. I would assume that in the next 50 years we will all be driving something other than corn powered ICE vehicles.
Electric comes to mind.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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You see! You can't even have a non-polarizing discussion about why it's polarizing!

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