Why you can't buy a high mpg car....

[F8L]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

If you want Euro-style high MPG cars, the US has to do two things:

1) Go back to the engine emiossion standards in place in 2000.
2) Change crash test standards to give smaller cars made by common techniques and of reasonably-priced material (read: other than carbon fiber) cars a chance to pass.

The first part is logical. Air quality is the best its been in the US since Jamestown was established. It has not noticeably improved since 2000.

Did the WHO (aren't they part of the UN?) tell us a what concentration diesel soot is carcinogenic, or is this another "zero tolerance" factoid?

Curious. When you say air quality levels have not changed since 2000 despite emissions standards increasing. Did you account for an increase in the number of vehicles on the road as well? I.e. would air quality levels have continued to decrease if standards did not continue to be raised?

[Frank Lee]

I'm sure the air in the L.A. basin isn't as clean as it was pre-industrial age. Even Minnesota has had air quality alerts- this in the age of strict pollution controls. Mark me down as highly suspicious of Dave's clean air claim.

I agree with Dave that crash standards are too onerous, basically legislating lots of really neat vehicles right off our roads, and the remaining ones are saddled with excessive bulk, cost, and complexity.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I'm sure the air in the L.A. basin isn't as clean as it was pre-industrial age. Even Minnesota has had air quality alerts- this in the age of strict pollution controls. Mark me down as highly suspicious of Dave's claim.

I agree with Dave that crash standards are too onerous, basically legislating lots of really neat vehicles right off our roads, and the remaining ones are saddled with excessive bulk and complexity.

Air quality alerts have less to do with vehicles and more to do with trends in the Coal fired power plant arena.

Weston 4 which we were forced to pay for despite not needing it went up and the 1976 Weston 2 stayed down for maintenance much of the time.

Weston 2 had excellent pollution controls, Weston 4 built during the bush era had NO POLLUTION CONTROLS AT ALL.

After it was built Wisconsin Started getting a fair number of pollution alerts especially during winter.

The company instead felt it cheaper to pay a fine and get an increase in electric fees because of the unused capacity.

Now the EPA is noticing and we will have to pay to upgrade Weston 4, too bad the investors and power company don't have a profits tax to penalize them for stupidity!

[Frank Lee]

Good to point out the pollution controls applied to everything, industrial included.

[minispeed]

The US still requires crash testing standards to account for an unbelted occupant. That restricts most of the small cars out of the US automatically. Probably the only way to meet that standard is to have a large padded dashboard. As north America. who's been in a third world seven sealer van with a Honda civic size footprint would notice it odd that the dashboard is only a few inches from the windshield. And with a nice twist some of the places that use those vehicles almost exclusively don't have seat belt laws.

But the fight was fought, battle was one, the US has the smart car, how well does it sell, how much interest does it even get from potential buyers cross shopping.it? Now there's the iq too which adds in 1 1/2 more seats, let's see how well that sells.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by minispeed

The US still requires crash testing standards to account for an unbelted occupant. That restricts most of the small cars out of the US automatically. Probably the only way to meet that standard is to have a large padded dashboard.

But the fight was fought, battle was one, the US has the smart car, how well does it sell, how much interest does it even get from potential buyers cross shopping.it? Now there's the iq too which adds in 1 1/2 more seats, let's see how well that sells.

The battle wasn't really won, I would argue that law should be removed since most everywhere requires safetybelts to operate a car.

Almost as dumb as disallowing collectors to import cars that would meet our standards but were never tested.

I say bah, eliminate all the reagan era gray market laws, if you are willing to pay to import something from a 1st world country and have the police do the walk around it should be allowed on the road.

I would have loved to import a Lupo SDI but uncle sam doesn't allow it.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I agree with Dave that crash standards are too onerous, basically legislating lots of really neat vehicles right off our roads, and the remaining ones are saddled with excessive bulk, cost, and complexity.

Cars buit to EU standards will normally pass US tests as well.

Compact cars - really compact cars - as well : even the tiny Fiat 500 made the grade.

[minispeed]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

The battle wasn't really won, I would argue that law should be removed since most everywhere requires safetybelts to operate a car.

Almost as dumb as disallowing collectors to import cars that would meet our standards but were never tested.

I say bah, eliminate all the reagan era gray market laws, if you are willing to pay to import something from a 1st world country and have the police do the walk around it should be allowed on the road.

I would have loved to import a Lupo SDI but uncle sam doesn't allow it.

I was using the term "battle" to refer to just the smart car and Iq, as in each car being certified to us specs and there still being a need to fight a battle for each subsequent European mini/micro car (or kei). If you look at the way the 1st gen interior was laid out, specifically the dash and compare it.to the 2nd gen allowed in the US you can see the influence of the unbelted occupant laws. With the iq if it wasn't for the centre stack dash design that has none of the typical motors filters and misc stuff in the dash upfront of the passenger I wonder if it would pass the test?

[Big Dave]

"I'm sure the air in the L.A. basin isn't as clean as it was pre-industrial age."

The Spanish missionaries referred to the San Fernando Valley as the "Valley of Smoke." What do you suppose that air quality was in NYC in Washington's day? Horse manure in summer and wood smoke in the winter. What of Boston in Lincoln's day? Horse manure, woodsmoke, and coal smoke.


"Even Minnesota has had air quality alerts- this in the age of strict pollution controls."

If you ratchet down standards far enough, even rural air will cause air pollution alerts.



What does EPA air monitoring data tell about pollutant concentrations?

[Vman455]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The Spanish missionaries referred to the San Fernando Valley as the "Valley of Smoke."

Close--the missionaries named the area after Saint Ferdinand (III of Castile); the Native Americans had called the area "valley of smoke" for reasons at which we can only guess.

Originally Posted by Big Dave

What do you suppose that air quality was in NYC in Washington's day? Horse manure in summer and wood smoke in the winter. What of Boston in Lincoln's day? Horse manure, woodsmoke, and coal smoke.

Arguing that poor air quality in the past is a reason to accept lower standards today is not the direction I would take here.... The lack of any concrete data for comparison beyond guessing is just the first of its problems.