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Old 01-25-2021, 07:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
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WMO/WVO/Used Trans/Hydraulic fluid to Black Diesel talk

This idea/concept I've been looking into more lately. I remember a ton of talk about WVO (waste vegi oil) around the 90's and early 2000's but never owned a diesel myself. I was also in school back then lol. Anyway, I'm looking to run it in a 7.3L power stroke (direct injection/HEUI system). I have to find a source yet for the oil but I suspect I'll be able to find some business willing to get rid of atleast a sample like 55gal to test with. Not sure what the best route to asking a shop about this, clearly need to talk to the manager/owner of the place.

Anyway, there's a million people saying slightly different things about this stuff. The basics of how I understand the process is something along these lines.

Raw motor oil hopefully free from gear lube or trans/hydraulic fluid
Course filter to get anything large out (old jeans etc works)
Centrifuge filter the oil (some suggest heating to 160-200f to drive out suspended water) - ideally multi passes with low flow rates to get the best results
mix with pump diesel, #1 diesel, or reg gasoline to thin it out
filter to min 5 micron (1 or 0.5 is prob best for my vehicle due to the direct injection system)

* Can't mix WMO with WVO/Biodiesel

I've read a couple mentions that the power strokes should have a special tune for WMO, I think they mentioned it advances the timing a little. I guess the WMO generally burns longer than standard diesel (and more BTU's).

I've seen people mention better MPG as well and some say they get worse. I suspect with the correct mix for the given engine and such it should give better assuming it's burning well and the fact it contains more energy.

Anyway, is there anything I'm missing? Advice or personal experience would be great. I know the IDI engines are a lot more common for this type of setup but I've seen quite a few people say they've had good success with the PDS at around 80-90% WMO and the rest reg gasoline (some mention 100% WMO in the summer).

I always liked the idea of the open options for diesel engines and all of the alt fuels they can burn. Of how I understand it, WVO has a bit more of an involved process and I think most people process it into biodiesel any more. Back in the late 90's-early 2000's I remember seeing a guy with a VW diesel running WVO directly by preheating it around the exhaust and starting/stopping on diesel.

For prep work on the truck, it sounds like it's generally a good idea to heat the fuel up before the filter. I saw one suggestion of wrapping a flexible fuel line around the upper radiator hose to make a makeshift heat exchanger and it seems like a pretty simple, cheap, and low risk of mixing fluids even if it's not the most efficient exchanger out there.

On a side note, I also have a wood stove and my primary heat for the house is wood (ash hard wood). I suspect if I get a solid source for WMO, I'll probably be under some sort of contract (or verbal agreement) to pickup their waste every so often and I have to deal with storage etc and hope I don't get more than I can use.

I've seen some simple ideas on converting wood stoves or pellet stoves to burn oil, basically an oil drip system and if I remember right a fan to give plenty of air. My wood stove has an ash clean out on the bottom and the air comes from the bottom. Grates and such are removable so seems like it would be fairly easy to convert with out modifying the actual wood stove. There's no cat or anything special about it, just an air jacket so I can move the heat via forced air and it has a water heating loop in it that I'm not currently using.

I also have propane as a backup heat source, I try to keep the wood stove going well enough so the thermostat doesn't kick on the propane unless I'm not home and the fire goes out. I'm not planning to burn oil while not home, I want to monitor it.

Oh, long ago I've heard running a little gas in a diesel makes it burn the fuel better, the WMO mixture seems to kind of line up for that. I wonder if anyone has had any solid experience with something like that? I know propane works really well to help burn the diesel up more completely, or nitrus if you're racing WOT.

It's probably worth a mention my truck has no EGR or any emission things that I'm aware of. The exhaust brake is disabled. There's also no inspections or emission testing required in my state. Of course I can't be creating a massive smoke cloud and causing issues for other drivers.

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Old 01-25-2021, 09:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Power stroke and putting anything into the diesel other than some fuel additive is a really bad idea. Plenty of power strokes were ruined by people trying to run waste vegetable oil in the early 2000s.
If you want to burn something in a diesel that isn't diesel, the power stroke is just about the worst platform I am aware of that one could pick.
Don't put gas in the diesel, don't put a bunch of motor oil or used transmission fluid in the fuel unless you want to replace the injectors. Look up how much a set costs and how difficult they are to change.
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Old 01-26-2021, 12:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I have a spare engine that runs great (good injectors), and I've changed half the glow plugs in my engine already, the injectors are right there next to them. The other half I have to do yet, but that's because of a shipping mistake by autozone. Everyone said to buy them from there and, I didn't check to see if other companies sold the right glow plugs - Motorcraft/Beru ZD11.

Injectors aren't the hard job, it's the injector cups that's more involved plus the requirement of special tools.

Just about every bad story I read about the power strokes has been a person doing something very clearly wrong. Like filtering used oil through some old shirts and calling it filtered and running it and 100 miles later their filter is plugged or worse the injectors are plugged.

I've read the power strokes actually start quite well on WMO compared to IDI.

Either way, I do want to hear the good and the bad. I'm aware that most people say the injectors will have a faster wear rate and the fuel pump will be working a lot harder than normal. Besides that there's potential carbon build up and having to change the fuel filter more often and maybe oil more often (blow by).

The biggest problem about the power stroke is also their benefit, the HEUI system. Sticking injectors is a concern too, but I suspect that would be caused more on the engine oil side instead of the fuel side.

The parts truck I have I paid for a few parts that I used and the spare set of axles so the truck doesn't really owe me anything so the injectors/engine is effectively free to me, just the risk of labor if things go south.

The rear most valve cover bolt is the most pain part about getting in the valve covers, since I know a trick to getting it out now, it's not too bad.

Anyway personally, probably going to avoid the waste vegetable oil since I don't know enough about the process and the requirements to run it in a somewhat modern diesel.

I'm sure a 6.0L, 6.4L or 6.7L is by far worse to run WMO/WVO in than the old 7.3L PSD, no regen to deal with, egr valve, etc. Of course the PSD is next in line after them for Ford stuff and next tick older is the IDI engines that are known to work fine so the only major concern I'm aware of is the injectors and fuel pump and the mix I mentioned above has been what people found to work in them.

Anyway, I'd love to hear direct experience with running these oils in a PSD, I'm guessing not many here have done it though.

Best I can find is random videos like this, the comments have a few people saying they run the stuff in their truck. The oil in the vid looks terrible though, I'd dare to say it's not properly filtered or something, very black looking vs what I've seen processed in other vids.



Here's an example of someone that's having issues and 100% isn't doing things right.



This is more of the setup I'm thinking. I've read these kinds of filters work down to around 0.5 micron. After that I'd still run it through an actual filter to be 100% sure but it should rarely plug up. I'm also thinking of a circulating system to run multi passes through the CF.



There's also the option of distilling diesel grade fuel from WMO but that takes a bit more science know how to properly build.
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Old 01-26-2021, 10:42 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I think you would be better off with a 6.2 mechanical injection or a Cummins with a P pump.
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Old 01-26-2021, 10:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Back in the'00s, people were running recycled waste oil and fry oil in their 7.3 sucessfully, some for many thousands of miles. HOWEVER It just wasn't get it, pour it into the tank, and don't forget to change the filters often. The processes were: settling for a couple of months in 55 gallon drums, filtering, and generally lowering the viscosity. Much like roasting your own coffee, making your own beer, there are people who favor the intense method of producing custom stuff over being able to go to market and buy the schlock they sell. Like homebrew anything else the movers and shakers kinda disappear back into the garage when there is a social upheaval.

Waste veggie oil can be converted to bio easily with lye and methanol, or at least I believe that's the process. There is about a 10% glycerine residue that has to be dealt with, but it is an organic compound. Waste veggie oil used to be free, but not anymore.
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Old 01-26-2021, 03:14 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Ironically, my dad made home brew (home made beer) and also home made wine. Some of his friends were scared of it because it went down so smooth, no bite, and they'd really get messed up on the stuff. When they stood up something was wrong with their legs. Most interesting part of it was that people didn't get hang overs from it unless they drank enough to effectively black out the night from their memory and it was a minor hang over at most. Full process vs shortcut max profit process. It took something like 6 months to a year for a batch of wine to be ready, I think beer was more like 2-3 months. The yeast was still alive/active in the stuff too, he'd only siphon off the clear and leave the settlement, no actual filters to remove yeast etc.

Anyway, the WVO I figured would be hard to find for free anymore. I do know a person with connections to a restaurant, but it's been so long since they where there that the connections might have dried up by now. I figured WMO would be the easiest route, there seems to be less things that can go wrong while processing it, basically super filter the stuff, thin it down (diesel, gas, kerosene, etc) and either run it or add more diesel for colder weather. Less oil, less risk of any injector troubles and such. Smoke is a sign of a bad mix for one reason or another (viscosity or too much/too little gas).

It sounds really weird to add gas to thin it down, but a lot of people swear by that mix, and the science (atleast my very poor understanding of it) seems to match up with what they are using it for. It's purely to thin the oil to be similar to diesel, not for combustion reasons. I suspect gas in standard diesel would thin it and make more top end clatter and probably more wear. Combustion wise, I'm not sure what the effect would be. In my mind I'd think it would be an extremely lean basically ping but very minor due to so little fuel and the extra heat I'd think would help burn the diesel up kind of like how propane works. Just like propane, too much is just as bad as too much gas (potential cracked pistons, broken rings, etc).

For the engine, I have the power stroke and spare engine/parts and understand the risks pretty well. Just overcoming the issues is what I'd need to focus on because of the design of the power stroke. If the issues are too hard to deal with or no one figured out a solution, then clearly I shouldn't continue unless I want to get into unproven areas. If there's a process that's known to work, then it should be pretty safe. I'm pretty sure #1 issue is the injectors, super high injection pressures (up to 21,000 psi) means wear is accelerated if there's anything abrasive in the fuel, lacking lubrication, etc. If I understand it right, water in the fuel is also abrasive at those pressures.

Besides the wear concerns, since the injection pressures are so high, the holes are that much smaller too, so the filtering size has to be even smaller to make sure they don't get plugged up. I guess one way to off set that a tiny bit would be to run an injector that has larger nozzle holes, but I suspect that kind of goes against the whole mpg idea.

Anyway, as always, it's good to do the math on this kind of stuff to account for worst cases. Reman injectors from Motorcraft on rock auto is effectively $250 each, so $2000 for the set. New injectors are around $171 but are aftermarket (no OE supplier that I see), so that's $1368. Say I average 20mpg and fuel costs are $2.50/gal (been seeing $2.43 lately). At $2000 cost, I'd have to save 800 gals of fuel or drive 16k miles at 20mpg to offset the cost.

Of course there's also a setup cost for the filter system and such. A centrifuge that's the right style looks to run around $1300, really I'd only need the drum/flywheel part, the rest is easy enough to build. I haven't poked around much to see if I can buy just that part, but if not it seems the next best thing to use it an old torque converter. My dad has a lathe so I can cut the back off and keep it balanced pretty well. More of a project for warm weather but very doable with the skill set I have or have access to. My family scraps vehicles somewhat often, so wouldn't take long to find a junk torque converter, my dad's truck has one that we suspect is bad and he's changing the transmission out. I'd just have to look up the ID lip size where the fluid over flows at and calculate the g force to see what kind of rpm I need to spin it at. Of my understanding, more g's the better for separating out things.

I know a guy that started on the WVO stuff, but not sure if he got too far with it. I'm sure he didn't have the proper filter setup and such. Might be able to work with him to lower my cost. He has a fleet of diesels for his business. I'm guessing my dad wouldn't be on board for his truck due to the low miles on it and the large investment.

I haven't looked up the WVO process, but I suspect the lye is to dissolve the glycerine so it's not a problem (or maybe it separates out). I suspect the methanol is to thin the fuel down, but maybe it's part of the reaction with the lye/glycerine.

Anyway, the general population isn't going to do things right, so a lot of people will run into issues trying this stuff I'm sure. I'm trying to be ahead of the curve and do the homework and hopefully get linked up with someone that's done this successfully with a power stroke (ideally for several years). I don't mind spending some $$$ with the idea that I should save that much or more in the long run. It's like my internet bill, I get about a 7% discount by paying for it for the whole year instead of month by month. My auto insurance I just switched to online quoted me the same type of deal, something like 3% discount to prepay for 6 months instead of monthly, but their system changed recently and the monthly price is claimed to be the same as the 6 month price, either case $60/mo for insurance for 2 old vehicles isn't half bad, last place was charging me $200/mo for one vehicle and I complained and they dropped it to $180... The laws here did change recently and either they are way behind on the change, or they are just ripping people off. That company has really gone down hill over the years, so kind of glad to be rid of them.

Anyway, if I get into processing oil like this, I probably will be looking to switch my backup heat source to WMO. I suspect a fuel oil furnace could be converted with a WMO nozzle. Process the oil so the tip doesn't need to be cleaned all the time and I suspect it should do fairly well, but will need to research it out a bit more. A drip feed setup wouldn't be bad in the wood stove too, just wouldn't want to leave with it going encase the flame went out. I could program a micro controller and run a solenoid/valve off it for the fuel and monitor temps etc if I went full force into it.

Anyway, I kind of apply a lot of the saving money logic of driving for mpg to life. Debt free, own my house, all my vehicles are paid for, live way below my means, etc. I'm just getting into the stock market and saving/investing money and if I play my cards right, I should be able to set myself up pretty well for "retirement". I never plan to stop working though, I'll be doing something until I physically can't or my will power is less than the hurdles of doing stuff I enjoy. My only mandated costs are taxes, power bill, internet, cell ($20/3 months), insurance, food, and gas. I know I could save a bit in the power bill area, food, and gas categories. Seems to me the gas/fuel would be the easiest target, that or target making more money.

I want to setup a generator some time too, either run off propane, or get a diesel engine or a generator that already has a small diesel. Targeting about 4kw-5kw, electric start (auto start). I have UPS systems on everything critical in my house, but the batteries don't last long and power outages in my area has been pretty bad the last few years, like 10+ per year and one happened when I wasn't home and had a small data loss.

Also the yard equipment I'm thinking of converting to propane (less issues), or now maybe diesel. So this WMO thing could expand a bit.

Anyway, there's also a small centrifuge that's like an oil filter size, it claims 2000g but from the vid's I've seen it requires several passes to get clean fluid. Basically needs a power steering pump, high pressure bypass, and the filter attached to a storage container to recirculate the fluid. It could be something to toy around with to test out ideas and make sure this works with my truck and such, worst case, it's an actual filter that can be installed on the engine to help keep the engine oil clean and I see sites claiming up to 40k miles between changes when good quality synthetic is used (with oil testing to validate). The "kit" is $400, but the only thing I see that's special is the mounting plate, the fittings and hose are cheap to get. In theory it could pay for it's self pretty fast, I plan to use synthetic oil which is about $100 per oil change, even if I only went 2 oil change's longer distance than normal, 2 oil changes and it's paid for. For the fuel, I'd need to process around 70 gals to off set the price (or drive 1400 miles on WMO using it).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19183308192...waAoV4EALw_wcB

Encase the url dies, here's a pic for those in the future.



It almost makes me wonder why they aren't factory on modern trucks, but most corps are about maximizing profits, so the answer is pretty clear.
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Old 02-07-2021, 12:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I've personally done wvo in a 04 vw tdi bew engine with greasecar kit in 2020. The prep is a lot of work, i live in canada so it took longer to heat up. i had to strain the oil. heat it up to boiling temperature. IF not done it will gum up your injectors and wont run properly. if your doing it with a stock f250 you'll need to replace the rear tank, its not capable of handling it for long periods of time. The heated fuel filter part for the f250 will save you lots of headakes.

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