Yeah we all know its a scam

[redneck]

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I stumbled across this today.


British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' technology - Telegraph



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[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Disco007 - You are Frank Lee and I claim my $500.

Funny you should say that, as I'd just been considering composing the ultimate HHO zealot's goof-ball conspiracy story and posting it up... but these guys are doing such a good job, it would be hard to top them.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by gone-ot

...you can do the same/similar "improvement" with 'shots' of NOX too, because all you're doing is introducing a different fuel into the combustion process, one that either "boosts" power (NOX) or economy (CNG, propane, etc.).

...however, the REAL effect is simply that you're adding more fuel, albeit a different fuel, into the engine.

...add both fuels together, and your net "gain" is seldom above zero.

Firstly:
NOS is not extra fuel; it's extra Oxygen/Oxidant.
You need to send in lots of extra fuel to make use of the extra oxygen to get any power out of NOS.

The extra power a diesel engine gets from CNG or Hydrogen or HHO is due to the diesel fuel burning more completely and faster.

Completely:
There's a quench distance of around 2.5mm in an ICE.
ie: The flame in the combustion chamber never gets more than 2.5mm from the cylinder wall, leaving a 2.5 mm thick virtual tube of unburned air-fuel against the cylinder wall.
Hydrogen will het to 0.5 mm from the cylinder wall.
That means a the 2 mm thick tube of mixture that normally isn't burned, is...

Then unburned HCs are a part of any exhaust stream.
If you look at any of the Peer Reviewed, Published Studies from Universities etc you will see that HC and CO are down and CO2s are up when adding H2.
That means that a more complete combustion of the fuel has taken place, giving you more of the ideal exhaust gasses; N2, H20, CO2.

ie: If you add the H2 or CNG and Diesel together; you are still using less fuel for a given amount of power because more of it is actually burning completely; providing said power.

Faster:
Ignition is X degrees before TDC because there's an optimum crank angle where the 'Burn' results in power getting to the crankshaft.
A faster burn, at the correct degrees after TDC therefore means 'more crank turn/torque' rather than wasted heat in the coolant and exhaust...

[oil pan 4]

In a direct injection diesel, like what's been sold for at least the last 20 years the fuel burns as soon as it leaves the tip of the injector. There is no point during operation that the fuel should come anywhere near the cylinder wall.
On a direct injection diesel the fuel injects effectively at tip dead center and it injects into a pocket in a piston.

Gasoline hydrogen mixtures in a gasoline engine has already been tested.
It was already testes in this peer reviewed paper.
It took a lot of hydrogen to give even a 3% fuel economy increase. A $100 bottle of hydrogen would last about 4 hours, assuming you owned that bottle and we're just having it filled for $100.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/...9770016170.pdf

[Logic]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

In a direct injection diesel, like what's been sold for at least the last 20 years the fuel burns as soon as it leaves the tip of the injector. There is no point during operation that the fuel should come anywhere near the cylinder wall.
On a direct injection diesel the fuel injects effectively at tip dead center and it injects into a pocket in a piston.

A good point.
Yet there the unburned HCs and CO are...

Perhaps the squish area causing turbulence at TDC gets the HC all over the place.

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Gasoline hydrogen mixtures in a gasoline engine has already been tested.
It was already testes in this peer reviewed paper.
It took a lot of hydrogen to give even a 3% fuel economy increase. A $100 bottle of hydrogen would last about 4 hours, assuming you owned that bottle and we're just having it filled for $100.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/...9770016170.pdf

Another good point oil pan.
Yet there are a good many other papers that have a different opinion.
I cant see the O2 making that much of a difference.. Perhaps with lean burn engines.?

So here's a theory:

These HHO cells often tend to be hot, steamy things.

That steam condenses to mist (what see and call steam) pretty fast.

Then I was surprised to lean that no matter how hot the water; when it's evaporated into air (endothermic reaction) you always end up with cooler air.
Just with more vapour in it.
That means denser intake air and hence a tad more O2.
(EFI/ignition systems also pic up on temperatures and adjust fuel and timing..)

During Compression; The boiling point of water increases with pressure. So the remaining mist will largely remain water. Ever hotter water, but water.

During combustion that water will boil, resulting in a 1800x increase in volume. ie: A bit of steam power, with lower temps and NOx.

Then there's the Thermolysis of water at ~2200 C to consider.
Here water disassociates into hydrogen and oxygen due to heat alone.
That's a temperature reached during combustion. Especially if there's a bit of H2 and extra O2 around.

Add to that the fact that both red hot carbon and HCs combine with steam to form H2 and CO (burnable) at well below combustion temperatures and all of a sudden it seems possible that more H2 is made than even the HHO nuts realise..!?

So ye, the maths doesn't work... or, on second thoughts; does it..??
Its one of those things I cant just write off without trying. Especially when there's so much waste heat and momentum etc going to waste that can be used here, rather than just engine-alternator...

[oil pan 4]

Well we already know 100% humidity improves fuel economy over dry air in a gasoline engine and it has nothing to do with HHO.
An running engine driving a car down the road uses so much air that adding an HHO machine would have about as much effect as a fart in a hurricane.
The only people who can prove they do anything on gasoline engines are always shrills.
I already have written them off. There's no reason it should work and the only people who claim to get them to work are shrills.

[oldbeaver]

I used a HHO generator for several weeks on my 6 cyl aspirated Nissan diesel engine. The system was constructed with very good inox steel, very hard to work with. It didn't corrode.

No improvement in mileage.

The generation of HHO was so intense, I had to install a 12v pump to allow the gas to get out of the generator, otherwise it got full of gas and cannot generate more. Other problem was exhaustion of water with soda. You have to refill frequently (gas stations don't provide this kkk).

The system consumed electricity, which was provided by the battery, which takes it from the car generator. So this was a direct load and a minus on the energy balance.

Summarizing: from the experimental point of view, the system did not meet my expectations. It does not work as it would have been desirable.

Besides, from the commercial point of view, If the system were efficient, engine builders would have already incorporated it.