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Old 01-07-2014, 07:42 PM   #101 (permalink)
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People have been jawboning this subject to death for over 100 years. Enough talk, make the darn thing or be quiet.

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Old 01-07-2014, 09:39 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wickydude View Post
On a diesel, you're better off with adding an lpg tank for the same effect. Prins autogas has such a system for big trucks.
They did not want to do this with a passenger diesel car, as they could not make it cost effective. I asked
The cleaner fuel burn found with LPG intake fumigation of a diesels intake air can also extend oil change intervals.
More power, cleaner emissions, better fuel economy, everything HHO wished it had.
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Old 01-08-2014, 02:41 PM   #103 (permalink)
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just bothered when folks use terms like "intellectually honest" meanwhile throw out speculation like %40 improvement from hho and don't read really informative posts, and write novels at every response full of new errors in logic.

Respect for the readers requires some focus.
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:05 PM   #104 (permalink)
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I'd like to see all these "open-minded" experimenters who counter the demonstrated thermodynamics with rhetoric of catalytic effects, altered flame front velocities and long complex molecular chains explain how thermodynamics does not govern under those circumstances.

Yes, it's facile to make the claim that on-vehicle hydrogen generation won't work because the energy in exceeds the reclaimed energy, and it's certainly valid to counter that we are not considering the whole system. Ultimately it is up to the critic to re-define that system, and that has not been done, I think because it is not understood.

Or is thermodynamics just so much bunk?
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:11 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazInMT View Post
P-hack...having read through everything, ...
...
Much Respect. Charlie
Charlie,

That was very thoughtful, thank you.

But I'm afraid with your friend's reply (which I'm assuming he directs at me), he again has shown himself for who he is. And I'm very sorry about that, it's been my experience that when folks do that they have a very hard time recovering their reputation.

Regarding my writing style, I don't know what to do. I was taught to be specific and follow an orderly and logical progression. And I don't feel I know that much (especially compared to my working peers and colleagues), but I will admit to at least being very well trained.

Maybe I should tell you something about myself, just to settle p-hack's prior question.

p-hack- Yes, I "do" science. My undergrad was in Biochem. My doctorate in a closely related field. I taught in my field for almost a decade at a major university in the south and I'm now an independent consultant/contractor. I'd tell you more but I'd like to protect my anonymity from your instability, so to say. Good luck pal.

Charlie, thanks again.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:40 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Altered flame fronts does not negate thermodynamics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
I'd like to see all these "open-minded" experimenters who counter the demonstrated thermodynamics with rhetoric of catalytic effects, altered flame front velocities and long complex molecular chains explain how thermodynamics does not govern under those circumstances.

Yes, it's facile to make the claim that on-vehicle hydrogen generation won't work because the energy in exceeds the reclaimed energy, and it's certainly valid to counter that we are not considering the whole system. Ultimately it is up to the critic to re-define that system, and that has not been done, I think because it is not understood.

Or is thermodynamics just so much bunk?
Hydrogen/oxygen is not a catalyst as the HHO proponents have put forward. It is consumed in the process of course, as a "seeding component". It happens on the thermochemical scale. The thermodynamics of chemistry. And it doesn't break the laws of said thermodynamics to alter the flame front and recover the lost energy of combustion. drrbc has pointed out repeatedly that we are not looking at a closed reaction. We are adding additional air and fuel to continuously produce energy, the bulk of which is wasted. Why the recovery of a percentage or two of this energy is not understood by forum readers is beyond me.

Reduce aerodynamic drag and less energy is needed to move the same speed.

Reduce rolling resistance and glide further on the same energy expenditure.

Reduce pumping losses in an engine and gain up to 15% more useable energy to move the vehicle. We all see this as part of the diesel cycle advantage.

Reduce combustion losses? Reduce heat loss? Improve the pressure gradient across the piston surface? All this can be done with a small seeding of oxygen/hydrogen.

A graduate level understanding of combustion may be needed to fully understand this, but the theory is not beyond those who have at least an undergraduate science background. Thermochemistry, Gibbs free Energy, reaction rates, etc.

That is why I simply seek to map the pressure curve. If that doesn't convince you, then I don't know what will.

I will build and integrate a system to do A-B-A tests. I will then offer to travel to any of the North American Skeptics on this forum and THEY can test the system and make a report here on Ecomodder. Of course all I ask is that you cover my travel expenses.

First things first - a suitable generator will be built. Then electronic controls implemented. Then the tests. Hopefully the instrumentation will include an in-cylinder pressure sensor.

Again, I am not creating energy from thin air. I am using a small amount of energy to recover a portion of the massive energy that is lost in the internal combustion engine. Wrap your head around that and it becomes plausible.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:07 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
....drrbc has pointed out repeatedly that we are not looking at a closed reaction....
But in all his preaching he errantly asserted a false dichotomy, and chided the carnot cycle to boot. When the valves are closed, it for all practical purposes is closed, even though the volume is changing. It certainly isn't "open" for purposes of HHO gain discussion.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:47 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Even this planet Earth itself is a flywheel. Inspite of the fact that it absorbs tons of cosmic debris, it still spins a year without any significant change in spin rate. HHO is conceptually sound, with the exception of the newer claim of defying the laws of thermodynamics.
HHO does not add enough energy to the system to overcome the cost of production onboard the vehicle itself.
If you could generate hydrogen with a solar energy source, THEN you could improve overall economy, but the same time and money spent on solar systems would be better if it heated or supplemented household energy requirements.
Is there a benefit for the extra (although pitiful) amount of energy, contained in the hydrogen, or in the oxygen concentration in the mixture?
Absolutely there is a benefit, but the cost of generation, and the inefficiency of such generation will always outweigh any benefit, in economy.

Can't we find better things to discuss, even to argue about, than this perpetually running scam that wastes time and bandwidth on this forum. If not then I guess we wouldbebetter off discussing the perpetualmotor, driven by magnetism. Free energy with no fuel, there is still a part of my mind (mostly repressed) That thinks that might be possible. Remember the Earth itself is a generator. Is it possible that we can harness that energy source for free mechanical effort?



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Old 01-09-2014, 07:56 AM   #109 (permalink)
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The fact remains, if HHO was practical, then you should just be able to install a large enough system to totally supplement your original fuel, so where are the cars running on their HHO as the ONLY fuel source?

If there is any mileage gain (which I have never seen properly documented) then it has to work as the ONLY system of fuel production and that my friends is perpetual motion.

I don't think I'll try to amaze y'all with my credentials but it (perpetual motion) hasn't happenend in planetary history. It seems safe to bet against it since it has never hapened before.
Maybe I'll take some of my brothers 40 pound lead ingots stick them in the microwave and turn them into GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 01-09-2014, 08:03 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
HHO is conceptually sound, with the exception of the newer claim of defying the laws of thermodynamics.
HHO does not add enough energy to the system to overcome the cost of production onboard the vehicle itself...
I'm willing to give Rusty the benefit of the doubt that he was able to make some gains and used the alternator as a power source for his experiments for purposes of this discussion, but there are other issues (like it being -16F outside, and other changes to the system that might not have been isolated or given weight, plus operation parameters) that I'm not sure make it practical even if there is some gain to be had.

I agree that if you can avoid squishing some of your combustion (and still get the same work out of your fuel) that there is more potential extraction there instead of just heat transfer. Changes in rate of combustion in an ICE have been known since the advent of vacuum advance distributors.

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